This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
variateur
rémunérés clés en main
Jan 12, 2008 13:26
16 yrs ago
17 viewers *
French term

excédât-elle un/vingtième

French to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s) conveyancing
Does this term have a recognised translation? Or could someone at least explain what it means. Here in context "toute erreur dans la désignation et toute différence de superficie, excédât-elle un/vingtième, devant faire le profit ou la perte de l'ACQUEREUR."
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 even if by more than 5%
4 +2 should it exceed one twentieth...
3 +2 even if it exceeds

Discussion

Joanne Nebbia (asker) Jan 12, 2008:
Thanks everyone Sorry this has turned into an epic debate
Attorney DC Bar Jan 12, 2008:
Asker, see Cornu, "action en repetition": Action en justice ouverte a la personne qui a effectue un paiement alors qu'elle n'en etait pas debitrice en vue de reprendre la somme qu'elle a versee entre les mains de celui qui l'a recue. (Civ. C. a. 1235-1277
Joanne Nebbia (asker) Jan 12, 2008:
To Rufinus Hope this is the right place to post this! Good point, I had translated this as "no rights of recourse or review" - but if you have a better idea ...
Joanne Nebbia (asker) Jan 12, 2008:
Whole sentence - for everyone L'ACQUEREUR prend les biens immobiliers vendus dans l'état où ils se trouvent actuellement sans pouvoir exercer aucun recours ni répétition contre le VENDEUR à raison de fouilles ou excavations qui ont pu être pratiquées sous l'immeuble et de tous éboulements qui pourraient en résulter par la suite, la nature du sol et du sous sol n'étant pas garantie, comme aussi sans aucune garantie de la part du VENDEUR, en ce qui concerne soit l'état de l'immeuble et les vices de toutes natures apparents ou cachés dont il peut être affecté, soit les mitoyennetés, soit la désignation des biens vendus soit les indications de superficie , toute erreur dans la désignation et toute différence de superficie, excédât-elle un/vingtième, devant faire le profit ou la perte de l'ACQUEREUR.
Joanne Nebbia (asker) Jan 12, 2008:
Ahh - how ingenious! I will now try to understand the meaning of the phrase! thanks :)
Tony M Jan 12, 2008:
(well, you will if you spell it right! 'vingtième', of course!)
Tony M Jan 12, 2008:
You need to search, not on the whole term, but on a shorter key element of it. For example, try searching on just 'vingitième' and you'll find at least one previous discussion
Tony M Jan 12, 2008:
Normally, you [the Asker] have an 'add note' button that allows you to add info in this space, without the number of characters restriction that the rest of us have.
Tony M Jan 12, 2008:
Please could you post that extra context up here, so everyone can see it, rather than down below? Thanks!
Ghyslaine LE NAGARD Jan 12, 2008:
I would need the entire sentence or paragraph to respond.

Proposed translations

+3
24 mins
Selected

even if by more than 5%

This has been discussed before at great length, so I suggest it would be worth your looking back into the archive.

Historically, under French conveyancing law, a tolerance of ±5% was disregarded (but more than that was taken into account). So what this is saying is that in the present contract / Deed, even errors of over 5% will not be adjusted for (i.e. will have to be accepted by either the seller or buyer, as appropriate)

It's a standard inclusion in such contracts, though I've never personally come across a 'standard' translation — not least, because I don't think the equivalent concept exists under English law (AFAIK!)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 27 mins (2008-01-12 13:53:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Of course, since we are talking about 'erreur', it will be 'of' rather than 'by' — or of course you can re-instate "...it exceeds..."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 54 mins (2008-01-12 14:20:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In case you have any doubts, as I am speaking from personal knowledge rather than merely citing Web refs., this was explained to me in great detail by a practising notaire, who added that it was pretty much useless padding anyway, referring as it does to obsolete FR practices!
Note from asker:
Hi Tony - I would love to repost the full sentence at the top but have no idea how! sorry - also, am mystified as the first thing I did was run a proz term search on this phrase and turned up a zero response - where can I find the other disscussions?
Peer comment(s):
agree Bourth (X) : Certainly clearer to all.
20 mins
Thanks, Alex!
agree Attorney DC Bar : Correct, but what's wrong with 'one-twentieth'? Why restate as '5%'? Not incorrect, but why do it?
3 hrs
Thanks, Rufinus! You're quite right, I did it more than anything else for Asker's benefit, to make it feel more familiar, and to (I hoped!) help explain the concept...
neutral B D Finch : Even should it exceed by more than 5% ...?
11 hrs
Well exactly! If you add in the 'even if...' idea, then the EN subjunctive 'should' sits really awkwardly, legal-ese or not
agree Patrice
15 hrs
Merci, Patrice !
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+2
4 mins

should it exceed one twentieth...

should it exceed 1/20th
Note from asker:
Does this mean that if the errors or differences are less than 1/20th then the buyer has no recourse?
L'ACQUEREUR prend les biens immobiliers vendus dans l'état où ils se trouvent actuellement sans pouvoir exercer aucun recours ni répétition contre le VENDEUR à raison de fouilles ou excavations qui ont pu être pratiquées sous l'immeuble et de tous éboulements qui pourraient en résulter par la suite, la nature du sol et du sous sol n'étant pas garantie, comme aussi sans aucune garantie de la part du VENDEUR, en ce qui concerne soit l'état de l'immeuble et les vices de toutes natures apparents ou cachés dont il peut être affecté, soit les mitoyennetés, soit la désignation des biens vendus soit les indications de superficie , toute erreur dans la désignation et toute différence de superficie, excédât-elle un/vingtième, devant faire le profit ou la perte de l'ACQUEREUR.
Peer comment(s):
agree Karen Stokes
17 mins
disagree Tony M : Although the idea is of course right, the EN expression is incomplete — even allowing for the stiltedness of legal-ese! But Alex, the key point that this misses out is the 'EVEN IF...it should exceed' idea encapsulated in the FR subjunctive.
24 mins
agree Bourth (X) : Contrary to Tony, this sounds like legalese to me. Depends how far down the "plain English" road you want to go. It could be perplexing for some English speakers, however, including native speakers!
32 mins
neutral B D Finch : I find the English perfectly "plain" enough! However, I am now convinced by Tony's arguments that "even" or "even if" is required. "5%" still preferred to a "twentieth".
48 mins
agree Victoria Porter-Burns : I agree - 5% sounds more natural to me
2 hrs
disagree Attorney DC Bar : No, it's 'even if', not 'should it'. And how are you translating 'repetition', Asker, just out of curiosity?
3 hrs
repetition ?
agree Younes Marouf
3759 days
Something went wrong...
+2
20 mins

even if it exceeds

I do agree with the proposal of NewCal in a general context but this one looks different.
I understand that the difference, even if in excess of one twentieth, will be borne by the buyer. As a consequence, the buyer has NO recourse at all.
Peer comment(s):
agree Bourth (X) : That too
25 mins
agree Laura Tridico : I prefer "even if it exceeds..."
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search