Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
divorcée (followed by surname)
English translation:
surname **** prior to divorce
Added to glossary by
Melissa McMahon
Apr 21, 2008 01:32
16 yrs ago
25 viewers *
French term
Australia
divorcée (followed by surname)
French to English
Social Sciences
Law (general)
civil status
In a legal document identifying the parties to a case, one of these is:
Madame XXXX divorcée YYYY
I have: "Ms XXXX (divorced name YYYY)", following roughly the same thinking as "épouse YYYY", but the notion of a 'divorced name' makes less and less sense the more I think about it.
I think they perhaps mean this was her name from a previous marriage - divorcée YYYY = divorced from YYYY (just as épouse YYYY means married to YYYY), but how does one put this?
Thanks in advance.
Madame XXXX divorcée YYYY
I have: "Ms XXXX (divorced name YYYY)", following roughly the same thinking as "épouse YYYY", but the notion of a 'divorced name' makes less and less sense the more I think about it.
I think they perhaps mean this was her name from a previous marriage - divorcée YYYY = divorced from YYYY (just as épouse YYYY means married to YYYY), but how does one put this?
Thanks in advance.
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
Apr 21, 2008 08:51: writeaway changed "Field" from "Law/Patents" to "Social Sciences"
Proposed translations
4 hrs
Selected
previous name
Used in many documents. Would be fine if the name change, not the divorce, is the main issue. If not:
Name prior to divorce
French law is rather strict as concerns continuing to use the spouse's last name --
En cas de divorce :
Chacun des époux reprend l'usage de son nom de naissance s'il utilisait celui de son conjoint.
L'un des époux peut continuer à utiliser le nom de son ex-conjoint :
* soit avec l'accord de son conjoint,
* soit avec l'autorisation du juge si l'époux justifie d'un intérêt particulier pour lui-même (par exemple dans l'exercice de son activité), ou pour ses enfants s'il exerce l'autorité parentale.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2008-04-21 06:04:53 GMT)
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Other possibilities (all to be found on web):
ex-spouse's surname or last name
previous spouse's surname
surname from previous marriage
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Note added at 5 hrs (2008-04-21 06:57:26 GMT)
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The French use Mme ZZZZ veuve AAAAA, AAAAA being the deceased husband's last name. Ditto for épouse. It's a safe bet IMO that divorcée is used the same way. Official French documents generally use the maiden name for married women (Sécurité Sociale, document de naturalisation...).
My other suggestions are probably clearer as to which name is which!
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Note added at 5 hrs (2008-04-21 07:19:17 GMT)
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Mme is then used with the maiden name.
Name prior to divorce
French law is rather strict as concerns continuing to use the spouse's last name --
En cas de divorce :
Chacun des époux reprend l'usage de son nom de naissance s'il utilisait celui de son conjoint.
L'un des époux peut continuer à utiliser le nom de son ex-conjoint :
* soit avec l'accord de son conjoint,
* soit avec l'autorisation du juge si l'époux justifie d'un intérêt particulier pour lui-même (par exemple dans l'exercice de son activité), ou pour ses enfants s'il exerce l'autorité parentale.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2008-04-21 06:04:53 GMT)
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Other possibilities (all to be found on web):
ex-spouse's surname or last name
previous spouse's surname
surname from previous marriage
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Note added at 5 hrs (2008-04-21 06:57:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The French use Mme ZZZZ veuve AAAAA, AAAAA being the deceased husband's last name. Ditto for épouse. It's a safe bet IMO that divorcée is used the same way. Official French documents generally use the maiden name for married women (Sécurité Sociale, document de naturalisation...).
My other suggestions are probably clearer as to which name is which!
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Note added at 5 hrs (2008-04-21 07:19:17 GMT)
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Mme is then used with the maiden name.
Note from asker:
| Yes, previous name occurred to me to, but is "previous name" the same as "ex-spouses's" name, if the ex-spouse is the one being divorced from? Isn't your previous name the one you revert to after divorced? It all seems to depend on whether by "Mrs X (divorcée Y)" they want to say "Mrs X (previously known as Mrs/Ms Y)" or "Mrs X (now known as Mrs/Ms Y)". May need to ask the client. The woman is of British nationality if it makes any difference - the name change would be the issue here not the divorce. |
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks, I think most of the responses had the right meaning, this one is closest to the wording I chose and the background info (& CMJ's) also v. helpful. Thanks Sue."
3 hrs
Divorced Ms. XXXX (formerly known as...)
Hello,
Before the divorce, she was known as Ms. YYYY (divorced name). Her "nom divorcé" is her former surname/last name. She most likely took back her maiden name, but it's possible to revert to a previous husband's name (I think).
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Note added at 3 hrs (2008-04-21 05:12:58 GMT)
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I meant a name of a previous husband not belonging to her most recent ex.
Before the divorce, she was known as Ms. YYYY (divorced name). Her "nom divorcé" is her former surname/last name. She most likely took back her maiden name, but it's possible to revert to a previous husband's name (I think).
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Note added at 3 hrs (2008-04-21 05:12:58 GMT)
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I meant a name of a previous husband not belonging to her most recent ex.
Note from asker:
| Wouldn't the 'divorced name' be the maiden name/even earlier husband name? Ie the name she decided to take once divorced? Which would mean that before the divorce she is not Ms YYYY but Ms XXXX? |
2 hrs
Michael Tovbin
United States
United States
Native in English
Works in field
United States
Commitment to Quality and Deadlines
Native in: English (Variant: US) 
, Russian (Variant: Standard-Russia)
Works in: Russian to English, French to English, English to Russian, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
why not?
when she divorced, she decided not to keep her husband's name and reverted to a previous name be it maiden or a previous husband's.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2008-04-21 06:05:20 GMT)
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That's what makes the most sense to me.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2008-04-21 06:10:30 GMT)
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If YYYY were the pre-marital name, then she would be MLLE XXXX (divorcée YYYY), neh?
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Note added at 4 hrs (2008-04-21 06:05:20 GMT)
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That's what makes the most sense to me.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2008-04-21 06:10:30 GMT)
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If YYYY were the pre-marital name, then she would be MLLE XXXX (divorcée YYYY), neh?
Note from asker:
| So would that make: - "XXXX" the name of the man she was married to (and now divorced from) and - "YYYY" her maiden name or name of previous husband? |
| Do you think? If XXXX is the marital name, would it be possible to refer to her as Mlle XXXX? |
5 hrs
Ellen Kraus
Austria
Austria
Specializes in field
Austria
more than thirty years of experience
Native in: German
Works in: Greek to German, English to German, Greek to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
126
Ms.X, divorced Y
without Ms. preceding Y
5 hrs
late
In legal documents that have the current married name (X), the maiden name (Y) and the married name before divorce (Z), you'll find:
Mrs. X late Z formerly Y (see reference below)
Mind you, on birth certificates, I 've also seen Mrs. X nee Y formerly Z so there seems to be a bit of inconsistency around.
Mrs. X late Z formerly Y (see reference below)
Mind you, on birth certificates, I 've also seen Mrs. X nee Y formerly Z so there seems to be a bit of inconsistency around.
Example sentence:
A full birth certificate contains the following information:
Name and maiden name of mother (eg. Mary Smith formerly Jones. In cases where the mother had been previously married, her former married name(s) should also be entered, eg. Mary Black, late Smith, formerly Jones.
+1
6 hrs
FYI - how things work in France
When a woman marries in France, she takes her husband's name BUT her "official" name will remain her maiden name for all her life, which is why on official forms she will be addressed as Mme (maiden name), épouse (husband's name) (example Mlle Dubois marries M. Martin: she will be addressed as Mme Dubois, épouse Martin) - though ofcourse for her everyday business, she will be called Mme Martin
Things get further complicated if the couple divorce. Mme Martin will then go back to being called Mme Dubois, divorced Martin (meaning she is divorced from M. Martin), if you see what I mean !
The fact is that some women, on divorce, continue to use their ex-husband's name, so as to have the same surname as their children. BUT this is not an automatic right. They have to make a specific request to that effect and, unless the law has changed, the ex-husband must agree.
In the UK, for example, when a woman marries she loses her maiden name, unless she specifically states otherwise, so when or if she divorces, she need not change name back. In Belgium, women do NOT take their husband's name at all. They live their whole lives with their maiden names. So no divorce, no problem.
I remember one occasion, for example, where a colleague, Mme XX divorced. We then had to call her Mme YY (her maiden name). Almost immediately she remarried and became Mme ZZ (the whole point of the exercise) but within the space of a few weeks, we found ourselves referring to the same person under 3 different names - talk about confusing.!
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Note added at 6 hrs (2008-04-21 08:03:29 GMT)
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"So no divorce, no problem" should have read "So if they divorce, no problem"
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Note added at 7 hrs (2008-04-21 08:42:10 GMT)
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yep - you've got caught up in the culture gap. "divorcée de" is what it means but they never write it that way.
I suggest that you explain in greater detail each time e.g. Mrs. XXX (maiden name), YYY (ex-husband's name) as fits the context. For the French, her only true name is her maiden name...
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Note added at 7 hrs (2008-04-21 08:44:32 GMT)
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Perhaps I should also add, to cover all bases, that when a woman divorces and therfore reverts to her maiden name, she is called Mme XXX and NEVER Mlle XXX.
Things get further complicated if the couple divorce. Mme Martin will then go back to being called Mme Dubois, divorced Martin (meaning she is divorced from M. Martin), if you see what I mean !
The fact is that some women, on divorce, continue to use their ex-husband's name, so as to have the same surname as their children. BUT this is not an automatic right. They have to make a specific request to that effect and, unless the law has changed, the ex-husband must agree.
In the UK, for example, when a woman marries she loses her maiden name, unless she specifically states otherwise, so when or if she divorces, she need not change name back. In Belgium, women do NOT take their husband's name at all. They live their whole lives with their maiden names. So no divorce, no problem.
I remember one occasion, for example, where a colleague, Mme XX divorced. We then had to call her Mme YY (her maiden name). Almost immediately she remarried and became Mme ZZ (the whole point of the exercise) but within the space of a few weeks, we found ourselves referring to the same person under 3 different names - talk about confusing.!
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Note added at 6 hrs (2008-04-21 08:03:29 GMT)
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"So no divorce, no problem" should have read "So if they divorce, no problem"
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Note added at 7 hrs (2008-04-21 08:42:10 GMT)
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yep - you've got caught up in the culture gap. "divorcée de" is what it means but they never write it that way.
I suggest that you explain in greater detail each time e.g. Mrs. XXX (maiden name), YYY (ex-husband's name) as fits the context. For the French, her only true name is her maiden name...
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Note added at 7 hrs (2008-04-21 08:44:32 GMT)
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Perhaps I should also add, to cover all bases, that when a woman divorces and therfore reverts to her maiden name, she is called Mme XXX and NEVER Mlle XXX.
Note from asker:
| Thanks for this: if I understand it correctly, then "divorcée YYYY" effectively means "divorcée DE YYYY" and XXXX would be the maiden name. Matters are possibly complicated by the fact that this is a British woman embroiled in French legal proceedings, but this is useful nevertheless. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
sueaberwoman
: Yes, we're on the same wavelength, but your explanation is clearer! The official name is "nom patronymique" in French, the other surname(s) being "nom(s) d'usage".
54 mins
|
5 hrs
Madame XX (surname Y following divorce).
The above formulation is typical. However it is useful to know the exact facts. Also, it is unfortunate that Asker did not state the names more clearly. (I assume that XXXX is a given name plus a surname and that YYYY is just a different surname.)
May mean that at some pertinent time such as the time the lawsuit was initiated her name was XXXX (given name plus surname) and that since then her surname was changed (e.g. reverted) to YYYY.
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Note added at 11 hrs (2008-04-21 12:39:06 GMT) Post-grading
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Okay, just the opposite. (Not enough info was given in the question.) (Of course, as is often the case in Kudoz the exact wrong answer was chosen by the Asker.) Revised proposals:
(1) if married and divorced only once: Miss A.X., divorced (surname Y. in last marriage).
(2) if married and divorced twice: Miss A.X., divorced (surname Y. in first marriage, surname Z. in second marriage).
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Note added at 11 hrs (2008-04-21 12:42:14 GMT) Post-grading
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(Actually, enough info was given, because the analogy is with "epouse".)
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Note added at 11 hrs (2008-04-21 13:01:24 GMT) Post-grading
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(I take back the remark about the wrong answer being chosen. I misread the confusing format.)
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Note added at 11 hrs (2008-04-21 13:02:35 GMT) Post-grading
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(Indeed, the extremely confusing (and erroneous) Kudoz format in this instance.)
May mean that at some pertinent time such as the time the lawsuit was initiated her name was XXXX (given name plus surname) and that since then her surname was changed (e.g. reverted) to YYYY.
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Note added at 11 hrs (2008-04-21 12:39:06 GMT) Post-grading
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Okay, just the opposite. (Not enough info was given in the question.) (Of course, as is often the case in Kudoz the exact wrong answer was chosen by the Asker.) Revised proposals:
(1) if married and divorced only once: Miss A.X., divorced (surname Y. in last marriage).
(2) if married and divorced twice: Miss A.X., divorced (surname Y. in first marriage, surname Z. in second marriage).
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Note added at 11 hrs (2008-04-21 12:42:14 GMT) Post-grading
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(Actually, enough info was given, because the analogy is with "epouse".)
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Note added at 11 hrs (2008-04-21 13:01:24 GMT) Post-grading
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(I take back the remark about the wrong answer being chosen. I misread the confusing format.)
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Note added at 11 hrs (2008-04-21 13:02:35 GMT) Post-grading
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(Indeed, the extremely confusing (and erroneous) Kudoz format in this instance.)
Note from asker:
| Yes, XXXX is given name plus surname and YYYY is a different surname. As the document covers proceedings that go over several years, the scenario you outline seems likely. |
Discussion
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