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l'héritier receleur
Elise (Nº Elise)
Mar 14, 2023 09:20
1 yr ago
47 viewers *
français term

portant atteinte à l'integrité physique de la personne

français vers anglais Autre Assurances
Hello,
This is a "certificat de travail" in which the employer states that their former employee can benefit from insurance cover portability for the certain risks:

Vous pourrez bénéficier à titre gratuit de la portabilité des garanties au titre des risques:

-portant atteinte à l'integrité physique de la personne ou liés a la maternité


L'integrité physique de la personne is defined by justifit.fr as "Atteintes à la personne : définition juridique
Les atteintes à la personne désignent toutes les formes d’infractions qui ont pour motivation ou pour effet de porter atteinte à l’intégrité physique ou psychologique d’autrui."

So is the former employee covered for his own personal physical integrity, or harm he might cause to a third party?
How do I accurately render this?

Many thanks.
Proposed translations (anglais)
4 +1 risks of sickness and personal injury
4 +1 affecting his/her/their physical integrity
4 Any assault to the physical integrity resulting in bodily harm
4 -2 personal injury
4 -3 causing bodily harm by personal injury
References
Just verbiage for 'portability' of (private/company) health insurance benefits
Examples in English

Discussion

Charles R. Mar 14, 2023:
@ph-b You've just added something to your comment.
Well I'm not sure because your link refers to "personal injury insurance" (which protects agains losses that arise as a result of causing personal injury to another person) which is not the same thing as a health insurance that covers injuries.
ph-b (X) Mar 14, 2023:
Charles R., bodily injury = « dommages corporels » uniquement
personal injury = « atteintes à la personne », physiques, psychologiques, etc.

Et au risque de me répéter : "non-bodily personal injuries, such as defamation of character or libel" are not covered by the type of health insurance referred to in certificats de travail.
Charles R. Mar 14, 2023:
Personal injury "Personal injury is a legal term for an injury to the body, mind, or emotions, as opposed to an injury to property. [...]
Car collisions are a major cause of personal injury cases.[...]
Common types of personal injury claims include road traffic accidents, work accidents, tripping accidents, assault claims, and product defect accidents (product liability).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_injury
Charles R. Mar 14, 2023:
@ph-b "personal injury n (injury to an individual) dommages corporels nmpl"
https://www.wordreference.com/enfr/personal injury
ph-b (X) Mar 14, 2023:
bodily injury, not personal injury i.e. dommages corporels and not atteintes à la personne

"Personal injury insurance protects against losses that arise as a result of causing personal injury to another person. These injuries can include bodily injury as well as non-bodily personal injuries, such as defamation of character or libel."
https://www.insuranceopedia.com/definition/3446/personal-inj...

"non-bodily personal injuries, such as defamation of character or libel" are not covered by the type of health insurance referred to in certificats de travail.
Charles R. Mar 14, 2023:
@ Phil That's the point, I am not very good at writing short comments. ;)
Charles R. Mar 14, 2023:
@ Idna Well I'm a French native speaker so I usually am a bit reluctant to post answers for French to English translations, unless I know the English terms for sure. Thank you for reading!
philgoddard Mar 14, 2023:
I always read comments if they're short and written by a native speaker who appears to know what they're talking about :-)
Idna (asker) Mar 14, 2023:
@ Charles
No I'm reading them too! Very very helpful. Thank you. If you are seeking points, shouldn't you submit an actual answer though and not just reference and discussion entries?
Charles R. Mar 14, 2023:
@ Phil Thank you, I was starting to think nobody reads my comments.
philgoddard Mar 14, 2023:
Charles You're right, it does also include sickness. If you want to suggest "sickness and personal injury", or words to that effect, I would vote for it.
Charles R. Mar 14, 2023:
Here another, much clearer reference The risks covered also include illnesses!

"Qu’est-ce que la prévoyance ?
La prévoyance regroupe l’ensemble des garanties collectives dont bénéficient les salariés, les anciens salariés et leurs ayants droit en complément des prestations servies par la Sécurité sociale en couverture des risques liés à l’atteinte à l’intégrité physique (maladie, accident), la maternité, l’incapacité de travail, l’invalidité et le décès (Code de la Sécurité Sociale, art. L. 911-1 et L. 911-2)"
https://www.grhaudit.com/la-portabilite-de-la-prevoyance-com...
Charles R. Mar 14, 2023:
@ all You're all on the wrong track. I know the phrase is misleading but it's a standard phrase in certificats de travail which does not only pertain to injuries. The risks covered also include illnesses for example!

Please see here:
"La portabilité des garanties de frais de santé et de prévoyance
Les garanties en question concernent « les garanties liées aux risques portant atteinte à l’intégrité physique de la personne ou liées à la maternité » (couverture frais de santé) ou « les garanties liées au risque décès ou aux risques d’incapacité de travail ou d’invalidité » (prévoyance lourde)."
https://www.ellipse-avocats.com/2015/04/la-portabilite-des-g...
Idna (asker) Mar 14, 2023:
@ philogoddard
Thank you for your answer. My question has given rise to more discussion than I expected. It looked like a simple phrase to translate, but it is not so simple after all. I will be sure to choose the best answer tomorrow when the 24 hour wait time is up.

I would add that indeed, my question was not about portability, other asnwerers were just making side comments. There are many definitions of insurance portability on the web, but I agree "portability" seems to be a mistranslation in this case.
Idna (asker) Mar 14, 2023:
@ Philgoddard
Of course I will consider the answers and award points to the one I think is most likely. ProZ always suggests waiting 24 hours to do so, so that is what I will do, as always.
I did recently close a question without awarding points, because there were no "answers", only "references", so ProZ wouldn't allow me to award points or select the best answer. If I recall correctly, I did close another one without awarding points, but as indicated there was no appropriate answer. Are there written guidelines about awarding points somewhere? I would be interested in reading it if there is.
philgoddard Mar 14, 2023:
Asker Please consider the answers and award points to the one you think is most likely.

There is no typo that I can see, you didn't post the wrong definition, and you've recently closed several questions without giving points. This will make people less inclined to help you.

The personal injury is to the employee, not someone else.
Idna (asker) Mar 14, 2023:
Uggh I just reread my question, there is a typo and I posted the wrong definition. Sorry! Thanks to everyone for your input and help!
Charles R. Mar 14, 2023:
@ Bourth Not "another case of the employer giving the impression that he is giving the employee something exceptional when in it is in fact a legal obligation". This has to be mentioned in the certificat de travail in order for the former employee to be able to claim it.
And by the way I made a mistake in the reference comment, once unemployed the former employee can still enjoy the health insurance benefits but neither the former employer nor the former employee pay for it. The costs are "mutualisés" which means that all other paying parties (employers and employees) pay for it.

"Il convient de noter que l’information des salariés quittant l’entreprise doit, depuis le 1er juin 2014, être délivrée lors de leur départ de l’entreprise, dans le cadre du certificat de travail."
"Aucune cotisation n’est versée ni par l’employeur ni par le salarié et le coût de ce dispositif est mutualisé."
https://www.ellipse-avocats.com/2015/04/la-portabilite-des-g...
Idna (asker) Mar 14, 2023:
OK thanks, I am making this more complicated than it needs to be.
Charles R. Mar 14, 2023:
@ Idna It's just about health insurance benefits, it has nothing to do with potential harm done to anybody else.
Idna (asker) Mar 14, 2023:
Thank you. Yes I had understood the concept of portability, but some insurance covers protect the insured against harm they cause to a third party. My question is whether the cover mentioned here relates to the physical integrity of the former employee, or of someone that employee might injure. Thoughts?

Proposed translations

+1
8 heures
français term (edited): risques portant atteinte à l'intégrité physique de la personne
Selected

risks of sickness and personal injury

Or maybe risks related to sickness and personal injury...

"Ce dispositif permet le maintien des garanties existantes dans l’entreprise pour les salariés quittant celle-ci –sauf dans le cadre d’une faute lourde – et bénéficiant de l’assurance chômage pendant une durée maximale de 12 mois.
Les garanties en question concernent « les garanties liées aux risques portant atteinte à l’intégrité physique de la personne ou liées à la maternité » (couverture frais de santé) ou « les garanties liées au risque décès ou aux risques d’incapacité de travail ou d’invalidité » (prévoyance lourde)."
https://www.ellipse-avocats.com/2015/04/la-portabilite-des-g...

"Qu’est-ce que la prévoyance ?
La prévoyance regroupe l’ensemble des garanties collectives dont bénéficient les salariés, les anciens salariés et leurs ayants droit en complément des prestations servies par la Sécurité sociale en couverture des risques liés à l’atteinte à l’intégrité physique (maladie, accident), la maternité, l’incapacité de travail, l’invalidité et le décès (Code de la Sécurité Sociale, art. L. 911-1 et L. 911-2)"
https://www.grhaudit.com/la-portabilite-de-la-prevoyance-com...
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : But "risks of" and "risks relating to" are redundant. We don't say "health risks cover", we just say "health cover".
3 minutes
Thank you. "Cover for risks" is what I had in mind, not OK?
neutral AllegroTrans : This is more like an explanation than a translation
17 minutes
Well, translating is explaining ;)
neutral ph-b (X) : Yes to "sickness", but no to "personal injury". "Bodily injury" is what is meant here.
25 minutes
You're possibly right. Then just "sickness and injury" would work I guess.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks to ALL for a very lively debate. Thanks to Charles R. for your knowledge about certificats de travail and the cover they mention (illness AND injury). Special shout-out to philgoddard as well for pointing out that initial answers were on the wrong track. I hope I haven't forgotten anyone. In the end, to align with the presentation of the source document, here is what I used: ...you may continue to benefit, free of charge, from insurance cover for the following risks: - Bodily injury, illness and maternity"
-3
1 heure

causing bodily harm by personal injury

atteinte à l'integrité de la personne : (assault - battery?) causing bodily hamr, Bridge. Bodily harm can be ABH - low-level actual bodily harm or GBH - high-injury grievous bodily harm, a disticntion that seems to have escaped the weblink answer of 'unintentional/involuntary GBH, GBH without intention'.

Otherwise, physical 'integrity' is Franglais or Spanglish code for intactness and the portability aspect is a red herring and irrelevant to the kernel of this question.
Example sentence:

BrE: Actual Bodily Harm. ABH is assault or battery that causes harm to a person's body.

Reference:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/1875808-atteinte-involontaire-à-lintégrité-physique.html

Peer comment(s):
disagree Charles R. : The context (certificat de travail and health insurance as well as the "portability aspect") is very important here. This has nothing to do with bodily harm or assault.
12 minutes
disagree AllegroTrans : The context is insurance risks not crime, and these include illness
1 heure
neutral philgoddard : You're on the right lines, but "causing bodily harm by personal injury" is a tautology and a misunderstanding.
3 heures
disagree ph-b (X) : This is definitely not about causing bodily harm.
4 heures
Something went wrong...
-2
5 heures

personal injury

Here's my suggested translation:

"You may transfer your personal injury and maternity cover free of charge".

I think the two previous answers have misunderstood the French.

"Risques portant atteinte à l'integrité physique de la personne" means "personal injury cover".

"Risques liés a la maternité" is "maternity cover".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2023-03-14 14:48:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The question is not about "portabilité", so how you translate it is moot.
Peer comment(s):
neutral ph-b (X) : "Bodily injury" rather than "personal injury", and no to your "suggested translation"/explanation: there's no "transfer" as the employee is still covered by their former employer's (group) insurance.
44 minutes
Like I said, the question is not about "portabilité". I don't understand why everyone is discussing this instead of the phrase in the header.
neutral Charles R. : I don't agree with personal injury. What about illness? / You're wrong, the text is misleading but it's a standard phrase in the certificat de travail and means health insurance benefits. See the link in my reference comment ("couverture frais de santé").
1 heure
It says "integrité physique". Being ill doesn't cause physical injury.//Yes, you're right.
disagree AllegroTrans : No, the term, in the context, includes illness; you have fallen into the same trap as Adrian MM
3 heures
disagree Bourth : 'Portabilité' here, it seems to me, is related to Asker's Q. about whether harm to 3rd parties is covered (is the policy 'portable' ('transferable, as you say) to others).
7 heures
Please stop harping on about "portabilité". It's not part of the question. And I didn't say "transferable to others ". Portable means you can take it with you.
Something went wrong...
+1
24 minutes

affecting his/her/their physical integrity

It's explained here, for example: https://www.lafinancepourtous.com/pratique/assurance/sante-2...

Portabilité means not that it can be transferred to another person but that it is maintenu for a certain time after the person's employment ceases:

"Le salarié licencié bénéficie du maintien (ou autrement dit de la portabilité) de la couverture complémentaire santé et prévoyance de son entreprise, jusqu’à 12 mois et gratuitement. [...] Les salariés qui quittent leur entreprise en tant que demandeurs d’emploi peuvent bénéficier pendant quelques mois du maintien des garanties santé et prévoyance dont ils disposaient en tant qu’employés"

It looks like another case of the employer giving the impression that he is giving the employee something exceptional when in it is in fact a legal obligation ;-(

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2023-03-14 21:33:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

For those criticizing my use of 'physical integrity', kindly note that I was merely repeating Asker's words: "is the former employee covered for his own personal physical integrity". Who am I to object to Asker's phrasing, if that's what they want to say? Take the issue up with them.
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M
1 heure
Thanks
agree writeaway
1 heure
Thanks
agree AllegroTrans : Charles R: this is insurance speak and I've seen similar in EN insurance policies (e.g. travel insurance). Whether the average reader understands it is kind of not relevant.
2 heures
Thanks. Someone said that employers are required to mention this. If that is the sole motivation, they prob. don't care if people understand ;-)
disagree philgoddard : I think you've completely misunderstood the French - see my answer.
4 heures
neutral ph-b (X) : Agree with your explanation of portabilité, but note that employers are required to mention it.. And "physical integrity" would not be used in English in an insurance context: "(risks of) bodily injury" is the appropriate term here.
5 heures
See added comment re. integrity (which is indeed used for property rather than persons).
disagree Charles R. : I do not think a reader will understand that illnesses are covered by the insurance plan when reading this translation.
8 heures
Agreed. See my added comment about 'integrity" above.
Something went wrong...
1 jour 6 heures

Any assault to the physical integrity resulting in bodily harm

Violation of physical integrity resulting in bodily harm
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

24 minutes
Reference:

Just verbiage for 'portability' of (private/company) health insurance benefits

If one is employed in France, the employer has to pay for half of the costs incurred by their private/company health insurance scheme (which comes on top of the public caisse d'assurance maladie). Once one loses their job, the employer still has to cover half of the costs for as long as the employee was employed (with a maximum duration of 12 months though), unless said ex-employee is not entitled to unemployment benefits.

https://www.ellipse-avocats.com/2015/04/la-portabilite-des-g...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2023-03-14 17:43:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Qu’est-ce que la prévoyance ?
La prévoyance regroupe l’ensemble des garanties collectives dont bénéficient les salariés, les anciens salariés et leurs ayants droit en complément des prestations servies par la Sécurité sociale en couverture des risques liés à l’atteinte à l’intégrité physique (maladie, accident), la maternité, l’incapacité de travail, l’invalidité et le décès (Code de la Sécurité Sociale, art. L. 911-1 et L. 911-2)"
https://www.grhaudit.com/la-portabilite-de-la-prevoyance-com...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree ph-b (X) : with your note added at 8 hrs: Code de la Sécurité Sociale, art. L. 911-1 et L. 911-2
22 heures
Something went wrong...
13 heures
Reference:

Examples in English

In brief: commercial general liability policies in Belgium
Lexology
https://www.lexology.com › library › detail
24 Feb 2023 — ... injury is rather broad in general liability policies: it refers to any impairment of the physical integrity of a person or of a body, ...

Insurance litigation—Belgium—Q&A guide | Legal Guidance
LexisNexis
https://www.lexisnexis.co.uk › legal › insurance-litigatio...
In general, the definition of bodily injury is rather broad in general liability policies: it refers to any impairment of the physical integrity of a person ...

How to quantify damages in personal injury cases in Italy
Giambrone Law
https://www.giambronelaw.com › site › library › articles
... “the temporary or permanent injury to the reduction of psycho-physical integrity of a person, regardless of the person's capacity to produce an income.

PERSONAL DATA PROTECTION AND PRIVACY POLICY ...
tekfen.com.tr
https://www.tekfen.com.tr › Uploads › pdfs
PDF
If required for protecting the life or physical integrity of a person who is unable to ... Insurance and Agency Services Companies. • Courier Companies.

Law Society of South Africa and Others v Minister for Transport ...
SAFLII
http://www.saflii.org › Databases
25 Nov 2010 — This Act shifted the requirement for insurance from the owner or driver to ... is directed at protecting the physical integrity of a person.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
disagree ph-b (X) : Quotes from unofficial, unchecked translations or any commentary hardly qualify as “reference”. They’re mere examples that can be wrong. Cf. Bourth “[integrity] indeed used for property rather than persons“. Do you have any quotes from insurance policies?
8 heures
Something went wrong...
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