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de tantos a tantos

English translation: many on many combat

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Spanish term or phrase:de tantos a tantos
English translation:many on many combat
Entered by: Marian Martin
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20:49 Aug 25, 2008
Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Archaeology
Spanish term or phrase: de tantos a tantos
Al que metía la pelota por aquel agujero de la piedra lo cercaban allí todos y le honraban y le cantaban cantares de alabanza, y bailaban con él un rato y le daban cierto premio particular de plumas y de mantas, bragueros, cosa que ellos tenían en mucho, aunque la honra era lo que él más estimaba y de lo que más caudal hacía, porque casi le honraban como a hombre que en combate particular ***de tantos a tantos*** hubiese vencido y dado fin a la contienda.
Patricia Rosas
United States
Local time: 14:59
many to many combat
Explanation:
Hi Patricia: I've been doing some research on this term, which I've never heard before, I think it's completely archaic. I found that it refers to combat situations involving many participants, as opposed to one-on-one combat, etc. Having established this, the next question is how to reconcile "en combate particular" & "de tantos a tantos", as it seems contradictory. I would suggest something like ...he was honored as one who single-handedly in many to many combat situations had vanquished...I think this is the general meaning although the wording can surely be improved :-)
Some refs. for the English term:
http://www.google.es/search?hl=es&q="many on many combat"&bt...
Refs. for the Spanish term:
... ó de tantos a tantos ó de poder á poder en Batalla nabal pues tiene la bentaja que se ve, e en caso de naufragio el salir a su tierra e yo á la suya. ...
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/003661743...
Uno de ellos es una batalla de tantos a tantos, en el que los de un bando despojan y saquean a los del otro; el otro juego consiste en una pelea de los ...
http://www.proteus.1afm.com/utopia01.html
tallas finales de tantos a tantos la una en Vizcaya y. la otra en Roma las quales ganaron los ... la batalla final de tantos a tantos y la bencieron a los ...
http://www.euskomedia.org/PDFAnlt/riev/13232247.pdf


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days23 hrs (2008-08-29 20:31:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hi Patricia: yes it must be really difficult work, it's hard to understand even by a native speaker because of the archaic vocabulary and turn of phrase. I haven't been able to find a clear dictionary entry for particular = specific, but I have found a good instance of that meaning in the following ref. Your rendition makes a lot of sense and would by no means be considered wrong. :-)

En la nueva época aparece otro sentido de la aventura. En la edad media hay aventuras, como por ejemplo las que relatan las novelas de caballería que cuestionan la suerte de un personaje, si va a morir o no, si va a triunfar o no en un combate. El caballero andante era generalmente un hidalgo, es decir, un hermano menor de una familia de nobles, no heredero, que en lugar de tomar los hábitos -porque los hermanos menores tenían esa otra posibilidad- prefería ser caballero andante y por esa vía podía tener muchas aventuras; pero su estatus, su significación social y el trato que esa significación determinaba para él y para los otros no estaban en cuestión en la aventura en que ganara o perdiera *** un combate particular.*** Que un personaje oscuro, semidesconocido, de origen poco destacado, un joven de Córcega, resulte ser emperador de media Europa como Napoleón, no era propio de la época. El sentido de la aventura no era propiamente la transformación repentina de la situación social de un personaje, o el surgimiento de un grupo con una significación o con unas costumbres nuevas. La vida tenía, pues, una determinación muy grande.
http://www.revistanumero.com/26quijo.htm

Other texts (some of approx. the same period as yours) give for "combate particular" the meaning of "individual combat" (just to complicate things more). So perhaps he defeated them individually, fighting on his own? Here are some refs:

... se embestían, lanza en ristre, como en un combate particular, aunque las lanzas que utilizaban eran de las llamadas "de cortesía"; es decir, ...
http://www.dieminger.com/GENEALOGY/details/Heraldica_22.html
Cuando es de escuadra á escuadra toma el nombre de combate general ; y si de buque á buque, el de combate particular. En todos los casos se dice también ...
http://books.google.es/books?id=0HUDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA166&lpg=PA...
... á los enemigos á fin de obligar á algunos de ellos á que aceptasen un combate particular. De ordinario el que desafiaba ó llamaba al combate, ...
http://books.google.es/books?id=zsYCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA15&lpg=PA1...
Hubo reciprocas protestas i amenazas, con riesgo de llegar a las manos en combate particular los dos capitanes. Mas, Cepeda ventajoso en jente prendió a ...
http://books.google.es/books?id=JJ8vFjSWjzsC&pg=PA164&lpg=PA...
Entonces Cabrera con objeto de ganar tiempo esperó á su rival, y le invitó á un combate particular, lo que sin duda no comprendió, pues la contestacion fue ...
http://books.google.es/books?id=4OQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA...

Finally, just to say that I have come across "group combat" as an alternative to "many on many" but the number of google hits is lower (for group combat).
Good luck :-)

Selected response from:

Marian Martin
Spain
Local time: 23:59
Grading comment
I appreciate everyone's help and answers, but m-martin's research deserves the points. I used "many on many combat" because, after all, this passage can sound as archaic as it is! Thanks for all the help!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +2from one score to the otherMónica Sauza
4many to many combat
Marian Martin
4like so many (before him)
Edward Tully
4blow for blow
Steven Huddleston


  

Answers


1 min   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
from one score to the other


Explanation:
or: who scored

Mónica Sauza
Local time: 16:59
Native speaker of: Spanish
PRO pts in category: 27

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Ivan Rotondo: or "score after score"
20 mins
  -> Thanks.

agree  Marian Martin: agree with ivan_trad. -:)
1 day1 hr
  -> Thanks, m_martin!
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

13 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
like so many (before him)


Explanation:
the meaning being "one of many"...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 25 mins (2008-08-25 21:15:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think this is warlike metaphorical use, not literal at all...

Edward Tully
Local time: 23:59
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 30
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
blow for blow


Explanation:
It seems to me that this is more akin to what was meant in the original.

Steven Huddleston
Mexico
Local time: 16:59
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in SpanishSpanish
PRO pts in category: 4
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

3 days19 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
many to many combat


Explanation:
Hi Patricia: I've been doing some research on this term, which I've never heard before, I think it's completely archaic. I found that it refers to combat situations involving many participants, as opposed to one-on-one combat, etc. Having established this, the next question is how to reconcile "en combate particular" & "de tantos a tantos", as it seems contradictory. I would suggest something like ...he was honored as one who single-handedly in many to many combat situations had vanquished...I think this is the general meaning although the wording can surely be improved :-)
Some refs. for the English term:
http://www.google.es/search?hl=es&q="many on many combat"&bt...
Refs. for the Spanish term:
... ó de tantos a tantos ó de poder á poder en Batalla nabal pues tiene la bentaja que se ve, e en caso de naufragio el salir a su tierra e yo á la suya. ...
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/003661743...
Uno de ellos es una batalla de tantos a tantos, en el que los de un bando despojan y saquean a los del otro; el otro juego consiste en una pelea de los ...
http://www.proteus.1afm.com/utopia01.html
tallas finales de tantos a tantos la una en Vizcaya y. la otra en Roma las quales ganaron los ... la batalla final de tantos a tantos y la bencieron a los ...
http://www.euskomedia.org/PDFAnlt/riev/13232247.pdf


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days23 hrs (2008-08-29 20:31:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hi Patricia: yes it must be really difficult work, it's hard to understand even by a native speaker because of the archaic vocabulary and turn of phrase. I haven't been able to find a clear dictionary entry for particular = specific, but I have found a good instance of that meaning in the following ref. Your rendition makes a lot of sense and would by no means be considered wrong. :-)

En la nueva época aparece otro sentido de la aventura. En la edad media hay aventuras, como por ejemplo las que relatan las novelas de caballería que cuestionan la suerte de un personaje, si va a morir o no, si va a triunfar o no en un combate. El caballero andante era generalmente un hidalgo, es decir, un hermano menor de una familia de nobles, no heredero, que en lugar de tomar los hábitos -porque los hermanos menores tenían esa otra posibilidad- prefería ser caballero andante y por esa vía podía tener muchas aventuras; pero su estatus, su significación social y el trato que esa significación determinaba para él y para los otros no estaban en cuestión en la aventura en que ganara o perdiera *** un combate particular.*** Que un personaje oscuro, semidesconocido, de origen poco destacado, un joven de Córcega, resulte ser emperador de media Europa como Napoleón, no era propio de la época. El sentido de la aventura no era propiamente la transformación repentina de la situación social de un personaje, o el surgimiento de un grupo con una significación o con unas costumbres nuevas. La vida tenía, pues, una determinación muy grande.
http://www.revistanumero.com/26quijo.htm

Other texts (some of approx. the same period as yours) give for "combate particular" the meaning of "individual combat" (just to complicate things more). So perhaps he defeated them individually, fighting on his own? Here are some refs:

... se embestían, lanza en ristre, como en un combate particular, aunque las lanzas que utilizaban eran de las llamadas "de cortesía"; es decir, ...
http://www.dieminger.com/GENEALOGY/details/Heraldica_22.html
Cuando es de escuadra á escuadra toma el nombre de combate general ; y si de buque á buque, el de combate particular. En todos los casos se dice también ...
http://books.google.es/books?id=0HUDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA166&lpg=PA...
... á los enemigos á fin de obligar á algunos de ellos á que aceptasen un combate particular. De ordinario el que desafiaba ó llamaba al combate, ...
http://books.google.es/books?id=zsYCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA15&lpg=PA1...
Hubo reciprocas protestas i amenazas, con riesgo de llegar a las manos en combate particular los dos capitanes. Mas, Cepeda ventajoso en jente prendió a ...
http://books.google.es/books?id=JJ8vFjSWjzsC&pg=PA164&lpg=PA...
Entonces Cabrera con objeto de ganar tiempo esperó á su rival, y le invitó á un combate particular, lo que sin duda no comprendió, pues la contestacion fue ...
http://books.google.es/books?id=4OQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA...

Finally, just to say that I have come across "group combat" as an alternative to "many on many" but the number of google hits is lower (for group combat).
Good luck :-)



Marian Martin
Spain
Local time: 23:59
Native speaker of: Native in SpanishSpanish
PRO pts in category: 24
Grading comment
I appreciate everyone's help and answers, but m-martin's research deserves the points. I used "many on many combat" because, after all, this passage can sound as archaic as it is! Thanks for all the help!
Notes to answerer
Asker: You are right (and I should have posted this) that it comes from the 16th century. Your information is very valuable. I had tentatively gone with "blow by blow vanquished". I only get 6 hits for "many-to-many combat" but I'm satisfied. Is there any chance that particular doesn't mean "private" but "in a specific many-to-many combat"?

Asker: I just have to say, too, that even the best of the 16th commentators on Mexico appear to have loose standards for expressing themselves--or perhaps it's a cultural barrier. It's very tough reading! Thanks for your help!

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Changes made by editors
Sep 7, 2008 - Changes made by Marian Martin:
Created KOG entryKudoZ term » KOG term


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