opolt Feb 24, 2011:

Ha ha, Bernd, as the blind leading the blind ... ... in this case ;-) I would say it depends on how important your message is for survivability :-] -- In this case, I believe what Richard said would be the right thing to do -- if only the term was used consistently throughout the document.

Me, I have no fuel left, and I bail out :-T

PS: Just in case it wasn't clear enough, "the blind leading the blind" was about me, not Bernd (of course).

Bernd Runge Feb 24, 2011:

'Translating into the blind' is what I would call it ;-)
"Transmitting into the blind" is standard terminology in aviation when someone transmits his message without having been able to establish contact on that frequency to the outside world. And, I don't have the impression that we've had contact to the outside world (any references) when discussing this term ...

Richard Stephen Feb 24, 2011:

Creative translation is what a friend calls it. If the author of the article to be translated can make up a new term in German to define 'the number of combustions per rotation', why can't we make up at term in English to translate it with?

Bernd Runge Feb 24, 2011:

Well If it is what you would define as the number of combustions in a 360° crankshaft cycle - go ahead.
To be honest, I still have no clue what the author is actually talking about - too scientific (if it is after all) for me. I would definitely refrain from offering any half-baked guess (that is my personal state of awareness at the moment) and contact the client about the concept behind this "flat/order term".

Richard Stephen Feb 24, 2011:

scheme I think I would opt for 'principle combustion scheme'.

Patrick Johnson (asker) Feb 24, 2011:

To all One last question before I wrap this up - does anyone think that "Hauptverbrennungsordnung" could be principal combustion plot?

opolt Feb 23, 2011:

Oops, "flach", that now ... ... sounds like they are talking about a curve, which points into the direction of "Motorordnung" again ...

Bernd is right in that there is no inherent value in the (German) term as such (assuming there isn't a proper Engl. equivalent), so yes, when in doubt leave it out.

One possibility though would be a "straight translation", such as "primary cb. order" ...

At any rate it seems to me I have been guessing too much already :-]

Good luck.

Patrick Johnson (asker) Feb 23, 2011:

To all Even more complication, I have now come across the following statement in the text :- "Die Hauptverbrennungsordnung ist flach während des konstanten Rollvorgangs vor der Vollastbeschleunigung"

Bernd Runge Feb 23, 2011:

No Firstly, looking at zero google hits for Hauptverbrennungsordnung indicates that this term is basically unknown in German, and, secondly, looking at the "auch" indicates that there is another term fitting this definition which would, thirdly, tempt me to skip this sentence as it doesn't reveal any new crucial information ...

Patrick Johnson (asker) Feb 23, 2011:

To all I would like to thank all members for the in-depth advice offered but I now need to arrive at a decision before tomorrow morning. Referring to Opolt's comment, could Hauptverbrennungsordnung possibly be "firing order"?

opolt Feb 23, 2011:

I can also find "firing order" ... ... which is the "Zündfolge", as related to the balancing -- not quite the thing but very close I believe:

"The sequence in which the power impulses occur in an engine is called the firing order. The firing order,or order in which the cylinders deliver their power strokes, is selected as a part of the engine design to obtain the best engine performance ... Engine balancing is related to firing order. One cylinder engine, working on four stroke cycle, has only one power impulse for every two revolutions of the crankshaft."
Quoted from: http://www.ustudy.in/node/4163

http://books.google.com/books?id=DoYaRsNFlEYC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_order

opolt Feb 23, 2011:

Not sure either ... ... somehow they're mixing up the three concepts of a) "engine balance" and b) "engine configuration" ("Motorkonzept/Zylinderanordnung"), which in turn affects the c) "number of power strokes per crankshaft revolution" (which is the orig. definition) -- all these are interrelated (but not the same of course).

From the above-mentioned Wiki source:
"Thirdly, there is a vibration produced by the fact that the engine is only producing power during the power stroke. In a four-stroke engine this vibration will have half the frequency of the first vibration, as the cylinder fires once every two revolutions. In a two-stroke engine, it will have the same frequency as the first vibration."

Bernd Runge Feb 23, 2011:

Patrick Since Motorordnung refers to vibrations at certain frequencies, I think that these would be referred to as engine harmonics. I doubt that this would cover the concept of the term in your text - not sure though.

opolt Feb 23, 2011:

Ja, die Motorordnung ... ... ist wohl evtl. doch gemeint. Sieht so aus, also ob man es als "primary engine balance" übersetzen könnte, und im letzteren Falle als "secondary engine balance". Oder irre ich mich?

Schaut mal hier:

http://www.motorlexikon.de/?I=8700&R=M

... vergleicht das dann mit dem hier:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance#Primary_and_seco...

Stimmt also wohl nicht, was ich in meinem ersten Kommentar gesagt habe ...

Patrick Johnson (asker) Feb 23, 2011:

Bernd Further on in the text, there is reference to "Beschleunigung mit vollem Drehmoment mit lediglich einer gering ansteigenden zweiten Motorordnung". So is this "engine order"?

Bernd Runge Feb 23, 2011:

Motorordnung Bei der Geräuschanalyse von Motoren gibt es eine Motorordnung, die sich durch die Anzahl der Zündvorgänge pro Kurbelwellenumdrehung definiert. Das hat aber gar nichts mit Turbolader-Verzögerungen zu tun.

Richard Stephen Feb 23, 2011:

Wankel engines A look at articles on Wankel engines might help. Both of the articles below speak of 'power strokes per revolution', but I couldn't find a single term to define this - which is what we are essentially looking for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine

Bernd Runge Feb 23, 2011:

Wird auch genannt ;-) Das scheint aber eine ziemlich seltene Bezeichnung zu sein - da müssen wir erstmal rausfinden, wie das sonst genannt genannt wird.

Richard Stephen Feb 23, 2011:

@ opolt Yeah, sounds like some automotive engine who wants to sound like a professor instead of a practitioner, making things much more complicated than they need be. I doubt that such a term is really used in scientific circles.

Richard Stephen Feb 23, 2011:

Ordnung can be translated as 'order' in mathematical terms, however in reference to internal combusion engines, 'order' is used in the sense of 'Reihenfolge' not 'Ordnung'
Perhaps you could use 'class', 'category' or 'scheme'.

opolt Feb 23, 2011:

Hi Patrick, do you think they have good reasons for using that term, or is it more like a hair-splitting exercise? I'm asking because it seems a bit academic to me, plus the "-ordnung" really looks out of place, it's odd that the "order" should be based on the "number" of strokes, this doesn't make too much sense to me.

As far as I am concerned, they're just talking about the "type of combustion cycle" here, there doesn't seem to be much more to it...