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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

richesse plastique

English translation:

richness of form

Added to glossary by B D Finch
Apr 12, 2011 12:56
13 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

richesse plastique

French to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting Design
Hi

'm stuck on this rather (for me) fuzzy notion in reference to the designer Sylvain Dubuisson.

"Son travail mêle innovation, richesse plastique et valeur affective."

I'm thinking along the lines of "visual diversity" and welcome comments/suggestions.

Many thanks
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 richness of form
4 +2 sculptural richness
4 ravishing play of volumes
3 diversity in design
3 rich formal plasticity
3 -1 unlimited creativity
Change log

Apr 19, 2011 07:54: B D Finch Created KOG entry

Discussion

Helen Shiner Apr 13, 2011:
@ BD Finch Seems a bit of a sweeping statement really, and critics are not the only ones to write about art. And again, there is so much more than plain describing going on. I'm certainly allergic to the just describing school of criticism myself.
B D Finch Apr 13, 2011:
I didn't intend to criticise artists or designers ... just critics. And to quote my old art teacher: "if you can describe it there isn't much point making it".
David Vaughn Apr 13, 2011:
'puissant blowhard' It's everyday English in blowhard circles. It's even trans-Atlantic (or rather, trans-pond)
Helen Shiner Apr 13, 2011:
Good and bad in every field, whether critic, journalist, historian or, indeed, artist/designer. All play a role otherwise wouldn't exist, even if you don't like what they have to say. Must look up 'puissant blowhard', a new one on me!
David Vaughn Apr 13, 2011:
sure Sure. And some say that.
Others often quite eloquently say that critics are the last people capable of talking about art. Many others say that under their breath, supposing that critics are good for business.
Lots of self-interested acquiescense to puissant blowhards.
Helen Shiner Apr 13, 2011:
@ David Also true, just as is often the fact that artists/designers, etc. are the last one's able to talk or write about their work - horses for courses.
David Vaughn Apr 13, 2011:
Neg space And of course just because some critic or historian has labeled your art in a certain way doesn't mean the artist gives a damn. Greenberg talked about Rothko's neg space and colour fields. Rothko said, "oh, really?"
Helen Shiner Apr 13, 2011:
Cups/saucers For examples of Dubuisson's cups, see 6:11 mins in: http://www.artbabble.org/video/ima/sylvain-dubuisson-design-...

or more quickly: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/design-plast...

@ BD Finch: just because something is recouped, and this happens constantly in art/design/architectural history, doesn't mean it isn't the preoccupation of a particular later era/artist/designer. Modernist sculptors, for instance, weren't the first to grapple with direct carving but it became a mantra for them.
B D Finch Apr 13, 2011:
Bernard Leach always said that the test of a good pot was to check that it looked just as good upside down. The ancient Greeks and Romans knew all about negative space, as was rediscovered in the Renaissance. But it is nice to play at being at the cutting edge!
Sandra Petch (asker) Apr 13, 2011:
Thank you for such an interesting and enriching debate. The works in question are functional objects and in particular tableware.
David Vaughn Apr 12, 2011:
@ Helen No, I was referring to the text to be translated, which mentions "son travail". In the context which Sandra has but we don't, it may refer to his entire oeuvre, to a certain show, a certain piece or anywhere in between.
Helen Shiner Apr 12, 2011:
@ David If you are referring to my comments, then I can't see any objection to formulating 'in the work' as I have. I suggest you check the images/sources available on Google and you will see, as I have, that he refers to himself as a designer. Some of his work is conceptual, some prototypes for more functional objects. I'm not arguing for anything 'being the same', so I don't know what you mean by your last comment. I merely noted that his oeuvre included pieces where one might reasonably speak about negative space having a value/meaning for him. You and I do not know the context beyond what Sandra has given. I'm sure she can sort it out based on the wider context and everyone's suggestions.
David Vaughn Apr 12, 2011:
design "His work" - is this referring to any particular part of his work? I see that he has done fancy art works, but I know him more as a designer of truly functional objects. I don't see the translation as necessarily being the same depending on what work is being referred to.
Helen Shiner Apr 12, 2011:
and some more - see video http://www.bernardaud.fr/index.php?id=fr41&video=_d348a25a18...

Right, I won't go on ....
Helen Shiner Apr 12, 2011:
Negative space in the work of Dubuisson http://www.paris-art.com/agenda-design/ôte-toi-de-mon-soleil...
Helen Shiner Apr 12, 2011:
The void One should say that the term more normally used is 'negative space'.
Helen Shiner Apr 12, 2011:
A pic Just because: http://www.shafe.co.uk/art/Alexander_Archipenko-_Walking_Wom...
Helen Shiner Apr 12, 2011:
Volume The definition most appropriate to my mind is the first part of David's no. 3. The crux of the matter with modern/contemporary sculpture or ceramics is volume - its presence or its indication in the reversed form of the void. This is sculptural form whether present or absent and it has been a key preoccupation since Archipenko/Zadkine et al - who both, by the way, worked in ceramics, produced Kleinplastik as well as working on the monumental scale. As for Dada art - well, it depends on what bit of Dada you are talking about. I really don't think the usage has changed as such, though the focus of art history has.
David Vaughn Apr 12, 2011:
Yes but... Plastique has had its meaning enlarged/narrowed as art has enlarged. Even fifty years ago, no one called Dada art plastique. Today experts disagree. Some say art plastique needs a physical object. In this case, is the author using plastique as a complement, as did Loti, or simply as descriptive?
As far as porn, you may know what is porn for you, but I doubt you find everything that is porn for others to be titillating. Bare feet? La nuque exposée?
Christopher Crockett Apr 12, 2011:
"physicality" to my mind, isn't the same as "plastique/plastik/plastic" (the adjective, not the noun) --though the latter terms do imply the necessity of the former (there can be no non-physical plasticity).

A bit like "monumentality" (in its technical, art historical sense) doesn't *necessarily* imply "large in size," which is what it sounds like it demands. Rather, it is a question of... I don't know... "presence" or something like that. Quite large objects (I'm speaking primarily of sculpture here) do not possess "monumentality" --while quite small objects may be infused with it.

Interesting to note that the Germans also use Plastik as a noun --meaning, essentially, Skulptur/sculpture.
Christopher Crockett Apr 12, 2011:
Ambiguous, perhaps, David, but, as you are no doubt aware "plastique" is frequently used in French art historical writing (as is Plastik in German), and it is pretty clear what, exactly, it refers to (thanks for the refs from Bob, btw). I don't know whether the Germans borrowed the term from the French (I expect so) or vice-versa, but I *do* know it when I see it --like pornography.
David Vaughn Apr 12, 2011:
it can be argued meant to say "it can be argued"
David Vaughn Apr 12, 2011:
plastique For me all the difficulty is in the fact that the French term is very ambiguous in the field of art, and in this text, i can be argued that all these definitions are present:

'tit Bob:

2. Relatif à l'art de donner une forme esthétique à des substances solides. Le génie plastique des Grecs.
3. Relatif aux arts dont le but est l'élaboration des formes, des volumes. Arts plastiques : sculpture, architecture, dessin, peinture; et aussi arts décoratifs, chorégraphie. Qualité, beauté plastique d'une œuvre.
◆ N. f. (1765) « Les règles de la plastique » (R. Huyghe).
4. Beau, quant à la forme. « De beaux gestes plastiques » (Loti).
Christopher Crockett Apr 12, 2011:
The concept of a "plastic void" is a bit difficult for me to get my head around, Helen; though i do take your point about spaces/voids being important "subjects" of modren "art" (and muzak). However, while Dubuisson's ceramics do create voids by their "plastic form," it is the form itself which is possessed of a "richesse plastique."
Helen Shiner Apr 12, 2011:
A point about 'sculptural' as a term It should be noted that 'sculptural' used in this way approximates to three-dimensional (itself a bit too clumsy in such a case as this). It is not reducible to 'of sculpture' in the literal sense, as it seems to be understood by certain contributors to this question, for some reason. Difficult, for instance, to speak of the richness of form of a void (as mentioned in one of my links), but the 'sculptural richness of a void' works. Modern and contemporary art/sculpture/three-dimensional work of whatever kind is as often about the spaces/voids as it is about the form/presence of something, so one should be very careful. For this reason, I would avoid 'form' as a translation, unless one can pin it down very precisely to refer to that.
Christopher Crockett Apr 12, 2011:
Quality of (plastic) form To expand on B.D.'s point:


The way I think about sculptural/plastic form qualitatively is: any 3-dimensional form may be thought of as being generated by a line moving through space. If the line changes shape as it moves, the form it creates is a more complex (i.e., "rich") shape; the more it changes, the more complexity/richness.


Some of Dubuisson's shapes


http://csimg.webmarchand.com/srv/FR/28008487apd1403509/T/340...


http://www.egodesign.ca/_files/articles/blocks/10269_dubuiss...


get a "richness/complexity" grade of "B" from me --a bit above "average."


Better than this:


http://www.sacred-destinations.com/france/autun-musee-rolin-...


But not quite as good as this:


http://www.pushpullbar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmenti...


or, certainly not this:


http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/arch/romanesque/souil...


(Which gets an A- on the Crockett scale --remember, you have to leave Room at the Top).

Proposed translations

+2
48 mins
Selected

richness of form


Though I can't find this expression linked specifically to the work of Sylvain Dubuisson, it does seem appropriate to his work.

"Our work has a richness of form and texture which belies the economy of means by ... The garden below is his winning design from 1998 … ..."
hortus2.wordpress.com/.../garden-designer-profile-tom-stuart-smith/

"The design philosophy is based on a consequential methodology of approach, ... greater richness of form and expression by maximising advanced technology. ..."
www.australian-architects.com/harryseidler/ - Australia -
Peer comment(s):
agree Jim Tucker (X) : Yes; should be less specific than "sculptural"
57 mins
Thanks Jim
agree Yolanda Broad
1 hr
Thanks Yolanda
neutral philgoddard : Form can be two- or three-dimensional, whereas "plastique" is definitely the latter.
1 hr
Given the nature of Dubuisson's work, it is obvious that this is about 3D. However, "sculptural" and "modelled" are used about painting in English and one assumes the reader understands that this doesn't mean the work is actually 3D.
agree Christopher Crockett : Yes, not the "diversity of form" but the richness of the "plastic" (3D) qualities of the sculpture. The (redundant) term "plastic form" is commonly used in the art hysterical literature (though the word has been contaminated by "plastic" as a material.
1 hr
Thanks Christipher. As you say, it is not about diversity, but about quality of form.
disagree Helen Shiner : Sorry, but as I have argued 'form' is only one half of the equation.
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you Barbara."
-1
32 mins

unlimited creativity

sounds great for a designer
Peer comment(s):
disagree David Vaughn : Where's the connection with the text? You can't just make stuff up.
4 hrs
Something went wrong...
25 mins

diversity in design

a first thought. I would avoid "visual" here, because Dubuisson's plastic qualities include modeling and other more sculptural elements. You could probably get away with "plastic" if the target audience is educated.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 33 mins (2011-04-12 13:30:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Maybe something with "physicality", which may correctly convey the idea, and contrast with the other qualities mentioned.

Sometimes I wish I could use some plastique on plastique. Often a translation problem.
Note from asker:
Thank you David. A mix of people will be reading this text, some familiar with the language of design and others who are more laymen (and women). Good point about the sculptural aspect, thanks.
Indeed, le plastique isn't always fantastique!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Christopher Crockett : I think I'll stick with B.D. on this one, though I do share your frustration with not being able to use "plastic" among the unwashed --a perfectly good word, ruined by Dupont, et al.
4 hrs
Just answered to get the show going, and point out the problem with "visual". But I do think "physicality" could work. Both "form" and "sculptural" seem excessively narrow to me.
Something went wrong...
7 hrs

ravishing play of volumes

Since it's Dubuisson plastique must be first and foremost a question of space and clever volumes - negative space.
Something went wrong...
16 hrs

rich formal plasticity

There's no need to wander too far from the French when such an expression exists in English. I'm closest to B.D. Finch, but I think 'richness' qualifies 'plasticity' rather than 'form' in this case.
Something went wrong...
+2
43 mins

sculptural richness

Josef Albers periodically designed furniture at the Weimar Bauhaus ... Though in some ways his designs resembled the work of his contemporaries, they were distinctive in their relative airiness and sureness of form. He brought an artist's eye to the making of objects: the voids had a sculptural richness, planes interlocked in crisp rhythms.
http://www.cooperhewitt.org/exhibitions/albers/site/albers.h...

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CalHMBYjdpoC&pg=PA140&lpg...

The shift in my work over the last several years from galleries to functional pieces is rewarding. A well-composed fireplace area, with custom carved mantle or benches, not only lends a central sculptural richness to the hearth/gathering place, but also radiates the real comfort of measurable warmth. The ebb and flow of tides that abrade the stones and shape the wood also make the wind that forms the clouds that ìsaltî the earth from a sky that seems yet my own. Clocks fade . . . as time itself becomes merely the measure of space between tides. The tooling and craftsmanship I execute in completing a stone composition or a piece of furniture is done with the same care I would apply in sculpting a mother and child; thus my satisfaction is complete and fulfilled.

http://www.leovait.com/leovaitartiststatement.htm

or perhaps even 'plenitude' if it isn't too overblown.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2011-04-13 08:53:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dubuisson and the sculptural: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/design-plast...

His cups - see my discussion comments - certainly seem to me to be about the play between space and form, with the repositioned handles apparently floating in space (presumably not on all sides though!).
Peer comment(s):
agree Evans (X)
32 mins
Thanks, Gilla
agree philgoddard : Yes, you have to convey the idea of three-dimensionality.
41 mins
Thanks, phil, yes, I agree.
Something went wrong...
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