This question was closed without grading. Reason: Answer found elsewhere
Aug 5, 2011 21:06
13 yrs ago
French term

RLBT

French to English Tech/Engineering Electronics / Elect Eng Mobile phone functional tests
I'm initially assuming this means "Réseau large bande mobile" = "Broadband mobile network", but am seeking corroboration. It doesn't feature on Rohde & Schwartz websites. Also, there doesn't appear to be an English acronym. BMN and BBMN don't appear anywhere that I can find.
Context:
RESEAUX
Réseau de couplage Schaffner modèle CDN 110 n°127
Réseau de couplage Schaffner modèle CDN 115 n°160
Réseau de couplage Schaffner modèle CDN 116 n°146
Réseau de couplage Schaffner modèle CDN 118 n°104
Réseau CDN (150 kHz à 230 MHz) Schaffner modèle M116 n°15019
Réseau CDN (150 kHz à 230 MHz) Schaffner modèle M216 n°15606
Réseau CDN (150 kHz à 230 MHz) Schaffner modèle M316 n°15862
Réseau CDN (150 kHz à 230 MHz) Schaffner modèle M316 n°15130
Réseau **RLBT** (9 kHz à 150 MHz) Rohde & Schwarz modèle ESH3-Z4 n°891801/008
Réseau RLBT (9 kHz à 150 MHz) Rohde & Schwarz modèle ESH3-Z4 n°892562/003
Réseau RLBT (9 kHz à 150 MHz) Rohde & Schwarz modèle ESH3-Z4 n°832351/014
Réseau RSIL 230 V (9 kHz à 30 MHz) Rohde & Schwarz modèle ESH3-Z5 n°890604/015
Réseau RSIL 230 V (9 kHz à 30 MHz) Rohde & Schwarz modèle ESH3-Z5 n°832479/006
Réseau RSIL en V (100 kHz à 200 MHz) Rohde & Schwarz modèle ESH3-Z6 n°826862/005
Réseau RSIL en V (100 kHz à 200 MHz) Rohde & Schwarz modèle ESH3-Z6 n°826862/006
Réseau RSI (150 kHz à 80 MHz) Rohde & Schwarz modèle ENY22 n°830661/036
Réseau RSI (150 kHz à 80 MHz) Rohde & Schwarz modèle ENY41 n°838119/021
Réseau RSIL 48 V (10 kHz à 30 MHz) S.A.T. n°103
Proposed translations (English)
5 -1 T-AMN
4 -1 T-network

Discussion

mediamatrix (X) Aug 15, 2011:
@Claude-Andrew You perhaps "don't feel it's appropriate to give points", but it would nevertheless be helpful to future RLBT-enthusiasts if you closed the question and something ended up in the glossary.
claude-andrew (asker) Aug 12, 2011:
After this unexpectedly rich discussion on a seemingly innocent acronym, and although all have helped guide me in the right direction, I don't feel it's appropriate to give points. Many of the refs given have been helpful in other directions in this large project (8 files), so once again thank you.
claude-andrew (asker) Aug 11, 2011:
It is undoubtedly an artificial mains, whatever the actual voltage, to enable the tester to feed in over-voltages and other test parameters under controlled conditions to see how the mobile fares. I am learning.
mediamatrix (X) Aug 11, 2011:
BT - basse tension In electric supply terms, BT = 'mains', i.e. voltages corresponding to the feed into premises, as distinct from MT, HTH, THT etc. for eletric power distribution on the national grid, between substations, etc.:

Basse tension - Wikipédia - [ Traducir esta página ]
fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basse_tension - En cachéSimilares
Elle est divisée en BTA et BTB, respectivement en dessous et au-dessus de 500V en alternatif et 750V en continu. Les tensions dont la valeur est plus faible ...


The "Réseau ligne basse tension - RLBT" is thus an artificial mains network, without a shadow of a doubt.
mediamatrix (X) Aug 11, 2011:
Right! So it is indeed an artificial mains network, as I suggested fright from the start.
claude-andrew (asker) Aug 11, 2011:
@Tony A bit more than intuition I should imagine! By the way, I had asked the client another question at the same time, to which he replied immediately ... I wonder if for this one they had to search around for someone who knew the answer.
Tony M Aug 11, 2011:
Right! So it is indeed a low-voltage LISN, as I'd suspected. And in this particular context, I think this 'low voltage' does indeed mean 'lower than mains voltage', even though in other contexts (like power generation / distribution) 'low voltage' is a relative term and does indeed refer to the normal supply voltage.

The old intuition is still working now and again, then ;-)
claude-andrew (asker) Aug 11, 2011:
The answer From the client:
Réseau ligne basse tension
But many thanks again to all for your contributions
Tony M Aug 8, 2011:
Bated breath... Thanks, Claude, I can't wait!

Given that this does indeed appear to be some kind of test receiver, I did just wonder if it stood for something like 'récepteur (à large bande) de test', but I'm standing by to hide this post hastily if the answer is something quite different! ;-)
claude-andrew (asker) Aug 8, 2011:
@Tony Thanks again Tony, your research is very much appreciated. I've had the agency I'm working for ask the client exactly what RLTB means. Watch this space!
claude-andrew (asker) Aug 7, 2011:
Yes, very interesting - and there's background info that I appreciate as a non-specialist in the field.
Just found this:
http://img.b2b.hc360.com/handbook/8-1-877381.pdf
in which the R&S ESH3-Z4 (RLBT) and R&S ESH3-Z5 RSIL) are both listed simply as "artificial mains"
Tony M Aug 7, 2011:
Great! Though as you say, the Roumanian EN does seem to be decidedly dodgy!

I just wish we could find any sort of confirmation direct from the horse's mouth, i.e. Rohde & Schwarz themsleves.
I'll be interested to see what my UK colleagues have to say once I can contact them tomorrow morning.


OK, now here's something interesting, which could explain a lot:

Gap Analysis between Defence and Commercial Standards

www.tuvps.co.uk › ... › TÜV SÜD Articles -
Due to the impedance difference between the LISN and AMN, the interference current differs dependent on the COTS internal impedance. ...

So perhaps this explains why the distinction is being made between an RSIL and an RLBT? I know full well that there are differences in the measurement protocols for commercial and military standards, which could explain why 2 different types of equipment are used.

Interesting, though, to note that there still seems to be some kind of German connection, even with this article from a UK company.
claude-andrew (asker) Aug 7, 2011:
@Tony I hereby give credence:
"For the measure of the conduced emission are used
artificial networks (AMN- Artificial Main Network), also
named LISN (Line Impedance Stabilizing Network), having
the role of transducer between the supply terminals of EUT
(Equipment under Test) and the measure receiver (Spectrum
Analyzer)"
http://www.stsb.ro/arhiva/MPS2008/index_files/topic/V 16 POC...
(Slightly dodgy English here I know)
Tony M Aug 7, 2011:
@ M/M Thanks for your comments!
It's not a question of not giving credence, simply that the term seems to have relatively limited usage (almost all the occurrences I found on Google seemed to come, directly or indirectly, from a small number of German sources).
I agree that the differentiation in FR between RBLT and RSIL may be unnecessary, and that the correct term for the latter is LISN, as confirmed by R&S own documentation.

However, for the ESH3-Z4, the specific term used by the device manufacturer is T-network (would appear to be a specific kind of LISN) — and I have not been able to find any trace of AMN anywhere in the R&S documentation (even in German)

So my preference would be to use the official term as used by the equipment manufacturer, rather than a term from a non-native English derivative source.
mediamatrix (X) Aug 7, 2011:
@Tony I fail to see why you - or Claude for that matter - apparently give no credence to the term used in the document referenced in my answer, where the exact same R&S equipment number, ESH3-Z4, is listed as one of that EMC lab's pieces of test gear and called a "T-Artificial Mains Network".
Interestingly enough, that same list also includes R&S ESH3-Z5, which they call "Artificial Mains Network" and ESH3-Z6, called "Artificial Mains" - both of which are tagged in Claude's document tags as "RSIL". Of course, the functions of an AMN and a LISN are very similar - to the point that some sources use the terms interchangeably (try googling the two together...) - so there's little point being too picky about the decoding of the French abbreviation - the aim is, after all, to render it in a meaningful English abbreviation.
Since Claude's list differentiates - somewhat unnecessarily - between RSIL (ESH3-Z5 etc.) and RLBT (ESH3-Z4), that distinction can be maintained in English by using LISN for RSIL and (T-)AMN for RLBT.
Tony M Aug 7, 2011:
@ M/M, @ Claude @ M/M

In answer to the point you made in your earlier discussion post, now hidden, I'd just like to emphasize that I never at any time said 'filter', but referred to 'network'; we all know these things are quite a bit more complicated than a 'mere' filter — but both the source text and the manufacturer refers to them as 'network', so I think I'm in good company. It's important to note with these R&S devices that even quite a small change in the model number can represent a very different piece of equipment.

@ Claude

Right, well in that case, I guess there's nothing 48 V about this, it's perhaps just a device rated at up to 48 V, which would of course be suitable for lower voltage use to; I suspect the distinction being made is probably simply between a mains (AC) one and a low-voltage (DC) one.
mediamatrix (X) Aug 6, 2011:
@Tony Tony wrote: "I wasn't for a moment suggesting this was a T-filter ". Hmmm.... What's that I read at the top of your answer? "T-network"
claude-andrew (asker) Aug 6, 2011:
@Tony In answer to your Q about the 48 V - no clue in the doc, the photos show rugged mobile phones of the TGR350S type being submitted to various tests such as electrostatic discharge, mains overvoltages etc. I can't find any ref. to the voltage, but the battery is Li ion 2600 mAh for 7.5h conversation.
Tony M Aug 6, 2011:
@ M/M I wasn't for a moment suggesting this was a T-filter (heaven knows, these things are precision devices and sometimes mightily complicated!), I was merely making the suggestion that the 'T' might not stand for an actual word as such, but simply refer to a connection pattern (as may well be the case with the 'V' seen below)

Do note that your ref. quoted here is somewhat misleading, inasmuch as the model is in fact the ESH2-Z5, which is not the same as asker's model, and in fact seems to be one of the RSILs — and there, I would agree that mains is involved, even though the official term LISN doesn't actually specifically use the term 'mains' — probably because of US origin!
mediamatrix (X) Aug 5, 2011:
T filter? Reducing this equipment's name to 'T-filter' might, perhaps, be acceptable as a piece of 'black-box' techie-speak between EMC experts; but when you see this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ROHDE-SCHWARZ-ESH2-Z5-ARTIFICIAL-MAINS-N...
where a similar, second-hand, AMN from the same manufacturer, is priced at USD 8.5 thousand, there must surely be something more substantial inside the box than a 'mere' T-filter.

I venture to suggest that referring this a 'T-filter' is rather like calling Rowan Atkinson's (broken) McLaren F1 a 'car'.
Tony M Aug 5, 2011:
Just a thought... LISNs are usually used to stablilize the impedance of mains supply lines; however, mobile phones work off low-voltage supplies (batteries). I was just wondering if, for these particular tests, the phones may be operated from a low-voltage DC supply (logical, to avoid possible anomalies caused by battery voltage variations), and if so, whether this could be some kind of 'réseau ligne basse tension'? Now the literal translation of that 'low-voltage line network' doesn't get any relevant Google hits, but I can't help wondering if it mightn't be something along those lines...? A LISN for a low-voltage DC supply, if you like...

I note that your list includes 230 V (= mains) RSILs as well as 48 V ones — I'd be quite interested to know just what sort of equipment would be using a 48 V DC supply? Are these actual mobile phones, or some elements of a mobile phone system network, for example?
mediamatrix (X) Aug 5, 2011:
FWIW:
CDN --> 'coupling-decoupling network'
RSIL is here:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/tech_engineering...
Tony M Aug 5, 2011:
Aha! Looking at the other networks, and in particular, the RSIL ones, I'm just wondering if these ones aren't some kind of LISN (Line Impedance Stabilizing Network)

This might perhaps just give a clue as to what your RLBT stands for...
Tony M Aug 5, 2011:
What it does NOT mean... ..is 'broadband mobile network'
This is the wrong kind of network, here it is referring to a circuit or network of components used for coupling interference signals into a device in order to tests its EMC.
I'll try and find this out for you, but everyone's in bed by now.. you might need to try looking up the relevant standards.

Proposed translations

-1
43 mins

T-AMN

Declined
T-Artificial Mains Network

See page 9 here (warning: large pdf download):
http://www.telegesis.com/downloads/general/EMC test report.p...

The doc. is from a major EMC test lab in Germany.

Back-translating, I guess RBLT means 'réseau à large bande-T'. I'm not sure what the 'T' stands for, but it doesn't matter for Asker's question :)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2011-08-05 22:34:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Having found references to this same piece of equipment in Spanish, where 'T' is replaced by 'V' (very often implying a bifurcation) I reckon the 'T' refers to a splitter.
Note from asker:
In fact there's a section with V-networks which I've just found
Peer comment(s):

disagree Tony M : Well, now we know that it does indeed stand for 'low-voltage line network' (as I'd suspected early on), this does of course rather preclude any mention of 'mains'. I think the meaning of 'low voltage here' needs to be interpreted carefully, in context.
18 mins
Totally incorrect conclusion.
Something went wrong...
-1
1 hr

T-network

Declined
Here's an R&S document that clearly refers to the ESH3-Z4 as simply a T-network, and goes on to explain what it is used for:

http://www2.rohde-schwarz.com/file_4218/Escs_bhl.pdf

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 heure (2011-08-05 22:10:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Thinking about it, networks for coupling into 2 lines might well be of T or V form (and cf. remembering T and ∏ pads, for example)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 heures (2011-08-06 06:17:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here is an advert for a second-hand device, of the actual model number in Asker's context, which refers to it as a "Rohde & Schwarz / R&S ESH3-Z4 T-Network EZM 800.1510.52" (and priced at a much more reasonable $450)

http://www.used-line.com/c6192491s136-Rohde_Schwarz_R_S_ESH3...

Note that it is not clear what the 'EZM' refers to, but the following 9-digit number might be a serial number, as seen in Asker's list above)

Here is another ref. where it is referred to as a T-network, without the 'EZM' bit, which seems as if it might be something of a red herring, since only one ref. actually cites it.

HF TEST RECEIVERS field - strength

www.helmut-singer.de/pdf/rsesh3.pdf

... T .network. ESH 3-Z4.
- Two-line V-network. ESH 3-ZS ...
model 56 with Spectrum Monitor EZM (model 56) ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 heures (2011-08-06 06:31:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

p 2-6 of the R&S document I referred to above seems to suggest that the ESH3-Z4 is used for the actual measurement, apparently setting it apart from the LISNs (though the text is not entirely explicit on this point) I quote:

"If none of the LISNs is switched on, the RFI voltage measurement is made on one line only. This is the case if a probe, a single-phase V-network (ESH3-Z4, ESH3-Z6) or an RF probe is to be used for
the measurement."

It is unfortunate that here they seem to incorrectly refer to it as a V-network rather than a T-network!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 heures (2011-08-06 06:34:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OK, in Asker's list above, the ESH3-Z6 mentioned is referred to as a V-network (one of the RSILs — it seems as if it may be a single-phase one)

So it seems again as if some kind of distinction is being made between the RLBT and the RSIL, without it's yet having been explained.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 heures (2011-08-06 06:38:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Right, on p 4-27 of the same document, we finally get to:

"If both LISNs are OFF, the RFI voltage measurement is made on one line only. This is to be determined if a probe, a single-phase LISN (ESH3-Z4), ESH3-Z6) or an RF probe is to be used for the measurement."

So it does indeed seem as if this ESH3-Z4 is a specific kind of LISN, though why the FR acronym is RLBT is still a mystery.

I still favour using what appears to be the device manufacturer's own term, without trying to interpret what the actual acronym stands for.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 jour16 heures (2011-08-07 14:05:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

This looks like a useful document to refer to:

http://www.elmac.co.uk/pdfs/ff26_report.pdf

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 jour17 heures (2011-08-07 14:09:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OK, from the above document, we have some useful information:

"For the specific purpose of making conducted emissions voltage measurements on the mains input of apparatus,
CISPR 16-1 [3] defines a transducer known as an Artificial Mains Network (AMN). The US term Line
Impedance Stabilisation Network (LISN) is in more general use
and usually means the same thing, although
strictly speaking it can be applied to a stabilising network intended for any type of line. The AMN/LISN has
three main purposes:
· to define the RF impedance seen by the EUT’s mains port. Otherwise, tests done on the same EUT
with different mains supplies would not be repeatable.
· to couple the interference signal from the EUT mains terminals to the measuring instrument in a
defined fashion, and to prevent the mains voltage from being directly applied to the measuring
instrument.
· to reduce extraneous ambient noise that might be present on the incoming mains circuit.
Several variants of AMN/LISN are specified in CISPR 16-1, but one in particular (the “50W/50mH + 5W”
version) has become established as the norm and is widely available from commercial suppliers. Other
impedance stabilising networks are specified for military, aerospace or automotive tests or are defined in draft
specifications for signal or control ports. These are not discussed in this document.
For the investigations which form the basis of this section, five manufacturers’ AMN/LISNs were used and
compared:
· MN2050C, Chase EMC, UK
· L2-16, PMM, Italy
· LISN 1600, Thurlby Thandar Instruments, UK, supplied by Laplace Instruments
· ESH3-Z5, Rohde & Schwarz, Germany
· 4825/2, EMCO, USA"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 jour17 heures (2011-08-07 14:15:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

So we now have the explanation for the difference in distribution of the two terms, and the technical nicety of usage between them; it seems that RSIL = either LISN or AMN, but we still have no hard-and-fast proof that the Z4 is exactly the same thing (though it seems in all likelihood it must be!).

I'm still tending towards my hunch that this is to do with powering the telephone at DC instead of at mains voltage, which seems to be borne out by the other list items' including a 48 V LISN.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 jour17 heures (2011-08-07 14:24:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OK, I've just taken a closer look at the Helmut Singer document I cited above; sadly, it's an image PDF, so I can't copy-&-paste the text here, but in the equipment list on page 2, it lists and to some extent explains as follows:

The following accessories are available for measuring interference voltages, currents and field strengths according to the relevant standards (CISPR, VDE, MIL, VG):

...
- T-network ESH3-Z4
- 2-line V-network ESH3-Z5
- V_network 5µH / 50 Ω ESH3-Z6
...


It would seem that what makes the RLBT different from the RSIL is the fact that it is a T rather than any kind of V network. The mains or not issue remains unresolved.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 jours14 heures (2011-08-08 11:19:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Right, I have a direct answer from R&S UK, though it seems curiously at odds with what we've found out so far.

Apparently, the ESH3 is an old 30MHz Test Receiver. The ESH3-Z4 is a Spectrum Analyser that is connected via their special T-network

So it seems as if perhaps the -Z4 part is the accessory, and any mention of LISN's etc. is perhaps referring to the way in which the main item of equipment is being connected up (rather than directly to this specific device).

To some extent, this does make sense, inasmuch as while the primary test equipment must of course be traceable and identified by serial number etc., one might perhaps hardly expect the smaller accessories to be listed in the same way.

I am still puzzled by the way this is all listed, but perhaps overall, Claude can make head or tail of it all!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 jours (2011-08-11 12:25:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OK, so it's a low-voltage LISN with a T-network connection — so glad we got there in the end!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 jours (2011-08-11 15:59:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I take M/M's point about BT meaning mains voltage in some contexts — usually, specifically to do with power distribution, generation, etc.

However, in this particular context of EMC testing, I'm still inclined to think they're referring to 'low voltage' in the more 'ordinary' sense, in the same way that some of the later RSILs are referred to as being '48 V'.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Jennifer Levey : This equipment is most certainly NOT a 'T-network' (other, perhaps, than in techie-speak black-box terms).
25 mins
Be that as it may, this is the actual term used by R&S themselves, so anything else might be over-interpretation.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

51 mins
Reference:

Rohde & Schwarz

This document makes reference to the model number of this coupling unit, and has a section all about EMC testing for mobile phones; however, I couldn't locate the exact reference.

http://www.rohde-schwarz.fr/file_4890/RUSN157E.PDF

Anyway, it's almost certainly some kind of coupling network used to couple interfering signals into the EUT — or as it nnow seems, perhaps for decoupling a supply line, for example.

p12 of this document mentions a ESH3-Z6 V-network, which lokks likely to be soemthing similar, or at least from the same product family:

http://www.rohde-schwarz.fr/file_15625/EMC_2011_2012_cat_en....

In fact, this very model also appears lower down in your list, where it is indeed listed as a V-network.

(see discussion post)


OK, so here's a confirmation of my hunch about RSIL:

STABILISATEUR D'IMPEDANCE DE RESEAU
www.hellopro.fr › ... › Analyses électroniques

STABILISATEUR D'IMPEDANCE DE RESEAU : Fischer Custom Communications, Inc. développe et fabrique des LISN ou RSIL couvrant la gamme de fréquence de 6 kHz à 1 ...

http://www.hellopro.fr/stabilisateur-d-impedance-de-reseau-1...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 52 minutes (2011-08-05 21:59:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

We'll get there in the end! Here's that last link again, properly:

http://www.hellopro.fr/stabilisateur-d-impedance-de-reseau-1...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 heures (2011-08-06 15:55:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hi Claude! I used to work in a specialist test house in the field of EMMC, so know a bit about this; if you have any further queries, don't hesitate to get in touch, and I can ask my former colleagues when they're open again on Monday morning.
Note from asker:
Tony, many thanks for your time. These references will be very useful, especially as (you've gathered) this is not my usual domain. I've already been skimming through the several EN standards that are quoted in my text. Most of the 8 files I have are pdf of scanned paper (groan) so wish me fotitude!
Something went wrong...
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