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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

Le sort détermine la qualité de celui qui est élu la première fois.

English translation:

The position of those who are elected for the first time is determined by chance

Added to glossary by Linda Young (X)
Nov 21, 2005 13:57
18 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

Le sort détermine la qualité de celui qui est élu la première fois.

French to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s) safety and health lawz
I really cannot figure out how to use "sort" in this sentence. Any ideas?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 The position of those who are elected for the first time is determined by chance
4 +3 The status [?] of the first person elected is determined at random / by tossing a coin
4 +2 rank of the first elected is determined by lot
3 +2 at random
3 +1 A draw determines/Chance determines
4 -1 the sorting determines the quality of the person elected first
3 Voting shall determine the quality of the one who is elected for the first time
1 fate decides the quality (?) ...

Proposed translations

+1
27 mins
French term (edited): Le sort d�termine la qualit� de celui qui est �lu la premi�re fois.
Selected

The position of those who are elected for the first time is determined by chance

***
Peer comment(s):
agree Besmir (X) : Excellent, though I would substitute "by chance" for "at random."/Oh, no, ur solution is excellent given lack of any context, u didn't pick the wrong one at all!
27 mins
Yes, it is better. I did hesitate...and picked the wrong one.
neutral Richard Benham : Why the plural?
45 mins
To avoid "the one" or "the person", as I feel - with no context - that it is a general fact applying to all candidates. In fact, it just sounded better to me!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks for your help, and to everyone else who took the time to give their opinions. "
-1
4 mins
French term (edited): Le sort d�termine la qualit� de celui qui est �lu la premi�re fois.

the sorting determines the quality of the person elected first

le sort= to sort or to pick through a number of people in this context

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Note added at 4 mins (2005-11-21 14:02:23 GMT)
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please add elected the first time around
Peer comment(s):
neutral Beatrice Hercend : In French, "sort" means fate, chance.
8 mins
but why would they leave it to fate, we probably need more context.
neutral Richard Benham : WIth BH; sorting is usually "tri".
1 hr
I know it is, but maybe in this context?
neutral df49f (X) : un petit saut dans le piège des faux-amis, semble-t-il ! :) //// ;-)
2 hrs
Eh Oui!:0(
disagree Tony M : No, here it is fate / destiny / chance, nothing to do with 'tri'
4 hrs
okay okay I get it
Something went wrong...
+2
7 mins
French term (edited): Le sort d�termine la qualit� de celui qui est �lu la premi�re fois.

rank of the first elected is determined by lot

in other words, there's a drawing to determine who ranks first... more context would be useful... Like the sentence before and after...
Peer comment(s):
agree Bourth (X) : "More context" Oh yes!!!!
1 min
Oh my!!! thanks.....
agree Sylvia Smith : yes, given the limited context!
20 mins
thanks
Something went wrong...
+2
15 mins
French term (edited): Le sort d�termine la qualit� de celui qui est �lu la premi�re fois.

at random

the title of the person elected first is determined at random

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Note added at 17 mins (2005-11-21 14:14:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

qualité in this context = title or position
Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway : sounds reasonable (so reasonable it's been picked up and used by someone else) unless context appears to show something else. is best to stay as noncommittal as the French imho
6 mins
agree eileengreen
48 mins
Something went wrong...
8 mins
French term (edited): Le sort d�termine la qualit� de celui qui est �lu la premi�re fois.

fate decides the quality (?) ...

More context required!

"Sort" could be "fate, destiny". "Qualité" can have many meanings. "celui" is what, a person or an object? "elire" can refer to political elections or moral or other choice ....

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Note added at 4 hrs 0 min (2005-11-21 17:58:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Thank you to Gillian for finding out where this comes from!

I imagine that for the first election, all candidates stand in the election, i.e. both employers' and employees' representatives, and the person with the most votes is elected, irrespective of his "house". For subsequent elections, only candidates representing the other "house" would be entitled to stand, since no coin-tossing, etc.

In which case I'd turn it round to something like:
The first [president, chairman, etc.] is elected from among candidates of both camps.
It HAS to be clearer than the French!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Gillian Hargreaves (X) : Impossible to tell whether it's your scenario or what I envisaged. However, I think "fate" is a bit poetic in this context
4 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr
French term (edited): Le sort d�termine la qualit� de celui qui est �lu la premi�re fois.

A draw determines/Chance determines

Si 'sort' veut dire ici 'tirage au sort'.

draw=choose at random (WordNet 1.7.1)

draw=To compose by random selection (draw a jury) (Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law 1996)

chance=an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that causes an event to result one way rather than another (WordNet 1.7.1)


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Note added at 4 hrs 16 mins (2005-11-21 18:14:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I would suggest 'Random draw determines...' (with all due respect to all).

ASA - Augustana Student Association
Ballot position shall be determined by a random draw. The Election Commissioner shall determine the form of the ballots. Section 6. Write-in votes shall not ...
www.augie.edu/student_serv/sa/asa/electioncode.htm

PGSA Constitution
All powers exercised by the Association and its elected office-holders and ...
(xiii) In case of a tie vote, a winner shall be selected by random draw ...
www.yorku.ca/pgsa/constitution.html
Peer comment(s):
agree df49f (X) : oui, by drawing/random draw/drawn= tirage/tiré au sort - déterminé par le sort=hasard, sous-entendu ici: après un tirage au sort (nothing esoteric about it!! :))
14 mins
neutral Besmir (X) : Sir, with all thou respect, this is a legal contract, not esoteric document, as a semantic value, "chance" has no place in it.
23 mins
Something went wrong...
+3
14 mins
French term (edited): Le sort d�termine la qualit� de celui qui est �lu la premi�re fois.

The status [?] of the first person elected is determined at random / by tossing a coin

I see from googling that this is (probably) to do with the Conseil des Prud'hommes and that "capacité" refers to whether the chairman is an employee or an employer, which happens alternately.

The "coin-tossing" option is sticking ones neck out a bit, because there are other random ways of deciding things (e.g. short straws), but since they are choosing between only two alternatives it seems likely.

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Note added at 4 hrs 11 mins (2005-11-21 18:09:13 GMT)
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Sorry, having found the context I ought to have given the link so that others could form a judgement. Here it is:

http://lexinter.net/Legislation5/organisation_et_fonctionnem...

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Note added at 4 hrs 12 mins (2005-11-21 18:10:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The link didn't all fit. Here's the rest:

et_fonctionnement_des_conseils_des_prud'hommes.htm

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Note added at 4 hrs 17 mins (2005-11-21 18:15:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Taking Bourth's suggestion into account, it would probably be best not to go for the coin-tossing option. I'm pretty sure that "at random" is the most appropriate solution, however you choose to translate "capacité" (which in this case means "the position of the chairman as an employer or employee").

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Note added at 4 hrs 19 mins (2005-11-21 18:17:45 GMT)
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How about "A random method is used to determine whether the first person elected to this post is an employee or employer"? A bit verbose, but it gets all the information over.
Peer comment(s):
agree Bourth (X) : Thanks for providing context! V. tricky without it.
3 hrs
Thanks Bourth.
agree Tony M
4 hrs
Thanks, Dusty.
agree Tamara Salvio : you've done the work, you deserve the credit ;-) A reworking of the preceding sentence along with this one should give a more elegant result. But as for "sort" it is "random" - and you got there first.
7 hrs
Thanks Tamara, you're very kind. :-)
neutral df49f (X) : it isn't just "random" - il s'agit ici de tirage au sort + "employee/employer/chairman" pour "qualité" semble une extrapolation un peu excessive d'un contexte absent
8 hrs
I've just been through all the 21 Google hits for this sentence and in every instance the alternatives are "salarié" and "employeur" and the office being elected is the "président". And what is tirage au sort but a method of producing a random result?
neutral Beatrice Hercend : Nothing tells this is a Conseil des Prud'hommes election, so "the position of the chairman as an employer or employee" for "quality" is a risky extrapolation.
17 hrs
It would have been useful if Linda could have enlightened us. But you're right - it could instead be a health and safety committee or some other work-related committee. But see also my response to df40f.
Something went wrong...
7 hrs
French term (edited): Le sort d�termine la qualit� de celui qui est �lu la premi�re fois.

Voting shall determine the quality of the one who is elected for the first time

just an idea!
Something went wrong...
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