Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Apr 15, 2013 09:49
11 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term
basses
French to English
Other
Ships, Sailing, Maritime
sea
I am translating a text about weather conditions at sea and am struggling with the term "basses" in the following sentence:
Éviter lors d’un coup de vent de croiser sur des hauts-fonds, la mer y déferle souvent, de même que sur les «basses» et généralement les fonds peu profonds.
In fact, I am struggling to differentiate between "haut-fonds", "basses" and "les fonds peu profonds" in this particular line. Does anyone have some bright ideas on how to tackle this please?
Éviter lors d’un coup de vent de croiser sur des hauts-fonds, la mer y déferle souvent, de même que sur les «basses» et généralement les fonds peu profonds.
In fact, I am struggling to differentiate between "haut-fonds", "basses" and "les fonds peu profonds" in this particular line. Does anyone have some bright ideas on how to tackle this please?
Proposed translations
(English)
3 +2 | shallows | Nikki Scott-Despaigne |
4 | sandbank | Catharine Cellier-Smart |
3 | reefs | kashew |
3 | shallow reefs and rocks | James Perry |
Proposed translations
+2
2 hrs
Selected
shallows
As the Asker indicates, the difficulty is defining three differents terms in English. However, if "fonds peu profonds" actually only appears once, then "shallow waters" may suffice.
The French descriptions relate rather more to where the sea bed lies in relation to the surface, thinking from the bottom up, whereas in English, we tend to think from the surface down.
A) haut-fond
Definition from Guide des termes de marin, La Chasse-Marée : élévation du relief sous-marin, souvent dangereux pour la navigation).
This Guide suggests "shoal" in English.
Shoal : (as defined by the Oxford A-Z of Sailing Terms) : a derivative of the word “shallow”, indicating a patch of water in the sea with a depth less than that of the surrounding water. Shoals are the results of banks of sand, mud or rock on the sea bed, and are usually marked, in pilotage waters, by buoys or other sea-marks.
Shoal : (as defined by The Illustrated Dictionary of Boating terms, John Rousmaniere) : an especially shallow area of water.
“Haut fond” is used to describe shallow water where the bottom is either sand or rock.
Likewise, “shoal” seems to cover shallow water, whatever the nature of the bottom.
B) basse
i) Definition from the Dictionnaire technique maritime) : banc de rocher affleurant la surface mais ne découvrant jamais. Ce terme n’est utilisé qu’en Bretagne. Syn. haut-fond.
Examples of dive sites in Brittany : Basse Prioul, Basse des Pordicais, Basse Mélithe, but also in the Mediterranean : Basse Renette, Basse de la Moulinière. So the ter mis used in the naming of sites, an not just in Brittany, as MG has already pointed out.
ii) Definition from http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/basse (basse 2, subst, fém) : MAR. ,,Banc de roche ou de corail s'approchant très près de la surface de la mer, mais ne découvrant jamais`` (Gruss 1952) : Certains par une longue expérience de n'y rencontrer [sur cette route marine] ni vigies ni basses, ils [les Espagnols] peuvent naviguer la nuit avec aussi peu de précautions que dans les mers d'Europe. Voyage de La Pérouse,t. 2, 1797, p. 294. Rem. Attesté dans la plupart des dict. généraux.
Prononc. Cf. basse1. Homon. basse1. Étymol. et Hist. 1484 mar. « haut-fond » (Garcie, Le Grant routier, Rouen d'apr. Arveiller dans Fr. mod., t. 25, p. 306 : il y a une basse). Substantivation du fém. de l'adj. bas*.
Given the general nature of this term and the fact that it appears to be used mainly in the naming of sites, then perhaps the term “shallows”, would be appropriate as used generally but also in site names, as with “Columbia Shallows”, Eastern Shallows” .
C) fonds peu profonds
Shallow water(s) ?
Conclusion :
haut fond = shoal
basse(s) = shallow(s)
fond peu profond = shallow water(s)
The French descriptions relate rather more to where the sea bed lies in relation to the surface, thinking from the bottom up, whereas in English, we tend to think from the surface down.
A) haut-fond
Definition from Guide des termes de marin, La Chasse-Marée : élévation du relief sous-marin, souvent dangereux pour la navigation).
This Guide suggests "shoal" in English.
Shoal : (as defined by the Oxford A-Z of Sailing Terms) : a derivative of the word “shallow”, indicating a patch of water in the sea with a depth less than that of the surrounding water. Shoals are the results of banks of sand, mud or rock on the sea bed, and are usually marked, in pilotage waters, by buoys or other sea-marks.
Shoal : (as defined by The Illustrated Dictionary of Boating terms, John Rousmaniere) : an especially shallow area of water.
“Haut fond” is used to describe shallow water where the bottom is either sand or rock.
Likewise, “shoal” seems to cover shallow water, whatever the nature of the bottom.
B) basse
i) Definition from the Dictionnaire technique maritime) : banc de rocher affleurant la surface mais ne découvrant jamais. Ce terme n’est utilisé qu’en Bretagne. Syn. haut-fond.
Examples of dive sites in Brittany : Basse Prioul, Basse des Pordicais, Basse Mélithe, but also in the Mediterranean : Basse Renette, Basse de la Moulinière. So the ter mis used in the naming of sites, an not just in Brittany, as MG has already pointed out.
ii) Definition from http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/basse (basse 2, subst, fém) : MAR. ,,Banc de roche ou de corail s'approchant très près de la surface de la mer, mais ne découvrant jamais`` (Gruss 1952) : Certains par une longue expérience de n'y rencontrer [sur cette route marine] ni vigies ni basses, ils [les Espagnols] peuvent naviguer la nuit avec aussi peu de précautions que dans les mers d'Europe. Voyage de La Pérouse,t. 2, 1797, p. 294. Rem. Attesté dans la plupart des dict. généraux.
Prononc. Cf. basse1. Homon. basse1. Étymol. et Hist. 1484 mar. « haut-fond » (Garcie, Le Grant routier, Rouen d'apr. Arveiller dans Fr. mod., t. 25, p. 306 : il y a une basse). Substantivation du fém. de l'adj. bas*.
Given the general nature of this term and the fact that it appears to be used mainly in the naming of sites, then perhaps the term “shallows”, would be appropriate as used generally but also in site names, as with “Columbia Shallows”, Eastern Shallows” .
C) fonds peu profonds
Shallow water(s) ?
Conclusion :
haut fond = shoal
basse(s) = shallow(s)
fond peu profond = shallow water(s)
Note from asker:
Thank you, Nikki, for your wonderfully detailed answer - an enormous help! |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Michael GREEN
: But "ce terme n'est utilisé qu'en Bretagne?" The Normans won't like that ... stacks of "basses" all around the Cotentin ... // In the Med too? And so there should be, foresooth ...
22 mins
|
Yes, I drew attention to that part of the definintion ! There are "basses" in the Med too.
|
|
agree |
Tony M
3 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you to all for the lively discussion and your suggestions."
31 mins
sandbank
'Sandbank' is one of the dictionary translations for "basses". Others are 'shoal', 'flat' or '(sunken) reef'.
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Note added at 37 mins (2013-04-15 10:26:42 GMT)
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"Haut-fonds" can be translated as 'white water' or 'shoals' if you don't want to use 'shallows' then you can use it for "fonds peu profonds": 'shallow depths'.
It's true the meaning of all three terms seems fairly similar though, especially "Haut-fonds" and "fonds peu profonds".
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Note added at 37 mins (2013-04-15 10:26:42 GMT)
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"Haut-fonds" can be translated as 'white water' or 'shoals' if you don't want to use 'shallows' then you can use it for "fonds peu profonds": 'shallow depths'.
It's true the meaning of all three terms seems fairly similar though, especially "Haut-fonds" and "fonds peu profonds".
Note from asker:
Thank you, Catharine |
42 mins
reefs
*
Note from asker:
Thank you, kashew |
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Michael GREEN
: Don't really think so. See my discussion points above. none of my FR charts showing "basses" (and there are lots of them) indicate rocks in those locations.
21 mins
|
1 hr
shallow reefs and rocks
Definition from Le Petit Robert 2011: "Banc de roches ou de corail, situé à faible profondeur, mais que l'eau ne découvre pas à marée basse".
I haven't included direct sense of the reefs not being exposed in low tide, but "shallow" gives an indication. You could add "invisible", but that might make for too many words... after all, the source is only 1 word.
I haven't included direct sense of the reefs not being exposed in low tide, but "shallow" gives an indication. You could add "invisible", but that might make for too many words... after all, the source is only 1 word.
Note from asker:
Thank you, James |
Discussion
Yes, but they are yachties, like their respective parents. Not a lot of time for much else :-)
;-)
(Well-known French saying).
More seriously, you won't find "haut fonds" on a chart, and I think the source text is being typically French by using 3 terms when 2 will do ... all the text is saying is that in windy conditions the sea gets lumpy on the shallow bits (which is stating the obvious, anyway. Any sailor should know that. Try the Basse Bréfort in Force 5. Or rather, don't ...).
There does not appear to be a direct EN equivalent. On these charts the areas of shallower water that the French would call "basses" are merely given local names (eg Puckey's Ground off Helford river, Old Wall off Falmouth, Castle Ledge off the river Dart) or not named at all. When rocks are involved the name is always "X rock". To distinguish between "haut fonds" and "basses" may seem pedantic to EN sailors, but you might consider "high ground" or "shelf".
See eg the "Basse Saint-Gilles" near the Aldernay tide race - it is 5 m deep compared with 10-20 m around it. Opposite Cherbourg there is the "Basse du Houffet", 22 m deep compared with 35 m near it.
Etc.
I don't have an Admiralty version of those charts, which would solve the problem, but I suggest "shallow water" will suffice here.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basse
Haut-fonds" = shallows
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haut-fond