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consulting for a different pathology
basal (direction, not metabolism) and basad
Sep 19, 2003 12:21
20 yrs ago
English term

monuments from Byzantine

English Art/Literary History
In order to understand the alchemy of Sicis mosaic one needs to enter the world of dreams: imagine walking into one of the monuments from Byzantine and being swept away by the incredible emotional impact that grabs those who for the first time step into the enchanting world of San Vitale, Galla Placidia, Sant'Apollinare in Classe, Sant'Apollinare Nuovo; you will feel pulled back into history, the magic and the mistery.


I feel there should be a noun after "Byzantine" since it's an adjective. But I was told it is a common colloquial way the word "Byzantine" is used.
So is there anything missing or it is ok?
Responses
4 Monuments of Byzantine/Byzantium V. Byzantine monuments
5 +4 Byzantium is the noun, Byzantine is the adjective
4 +4 Byzantine Italy, Byzantime times
5 +3 from the Byzantine period
5 +2 It's a mistake
3 +3 Byzantium
4 +1 monuments from the Byzantine Empire
Change log

Apr 18, 2005 03:38: Özden Arıkan changed "Field (specific)" from "(none)" to "History"

Discussion

Non-ProZ.com Sep 19, 2003:
Sarah: This was said by a colleage of ours here, on proZ, in answer to a kudoZ question in Eng->Rus pair. She's native Russian, but lives in the USA. She said this expression was often used by her professors at lectures. I had thought this is a strange grammar even for colloquial speech, that's why the question.
Sarah Ponting Sep 19, 2003:
I wouldn't say Byzantine used as a noun is "common "colloquial" use. Did a native English speaker tell you this?
Non-ProZ.com Sep 19, 2003:
To all: Thank you very much, but the question is it ok to use the adjective "Bezantine" as a noun or it is a mistake.

(And why not "Byzantine monuments"? Why "monuments from Byzantine"?)

Responses

26 mins
Selected

Monuments of Byzantine/Byzantium V. Byzantine monuments

Is merely a matter of the sound and rhythm the author wants to produce - both orders are correct, leaving aside the question of whether Byzantine was ever used as a noun (which I haven't had a chance to research yet - without proof I would say: use Byzantine as a noun yourself, if you want a noun, not Byzantine. However it would be wrong to say that it definitely isn't an old poetic use (for example) without checking ;-)
In this case 'mon. of Byzantium (Byzantine - IF it was intended, which I can't say at present) would have been used in pref. to Byzantine mon.' just because of the rhythm here - if there isn't a noun missed out after the 'Byzantine'...not impossible either :-)

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Note added at 36 mins (2003-09-19 12:58:42 GMT)
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Unless we can find evidence that Bezantine/Byzantine was used respectably as a noun, it leaves it looking as if it is either a mistake and Byzantium should have been used, or there is a noun missing after the \'Byzantine\'....

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Note added at 39 mins (2003-09-19 13:01:16 GMT)
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I don\'t recollect ever seeing Bezantine/Byzantine as a noun - I think I would want to hear or find evidence of it, before I accepted it :-)

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Note added at 47 mins (2003-09-19 13:09:56 GMT)
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I don\'t recollect ever seeing Bezantine/Byzantine as a noun - I think I would want to hear or find evidence of it, before I accepted it :-)

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Note added at 52 mins (2003-09-19 13:13:57 GMT)
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The OED (big dictionary), Collins & Websters all agree on Byzantine as a noun for inhabitants of the city/empire, but don\'t say anything about it ever having been used as a noun for the city/empire itself....

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Note added at 1 hr 36 mins (2003-09-19 13:58:40 GMT)
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To look into the question of whether Byzantine/Bezantine might have been used respectably as a noun for the city/empire, despite it not having been in the dictionaries, I did a google search(usual caution about evaluating google results must apply :-) on \"Emperor of Byzantine\" - and it is true that a substant minority do refer to the \'Emperor of Byzantine\' as opposed to the \'...Byzantine Empire\'. When seeking to evaluate such findings, I try to look at the institutions/individuals presenting the sites eg: if they were from highly respected English-speaking-country academic institutions or museums I might be convinced it was a sound English use - but in this case they are sensible seeming geneology sites, popular education sites, a nicely presented museum site from a firm of solicitors, etc, probably including many US - so I am not convinced it\'s an accepted English use. Perhaps they are borrowing the noun from the way it might be used in another language (French or Latin?), and that accounts for it rather than simple ignorance (I don\'t know whether this is so or not).

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Note added at 1 hr 51 mins (2003-09-19 14:13:53 GMT)
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Anyway, I think it needs \'Byzantium\' or a noun to follow.

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Note added at 2003-09-19 14:52:48 (GMT)
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A search on the above term might be claimed to show that there might be a colloq. use in the US (never in the UK!) for this - but that still leaves the question, is it a CORRECT colloq. use or a mistake (or borrowed from another language). I didn\'t find any history experts using it.

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Note added at 6 hrs 58 mins (2003-09-19 19:20:17 GMT)
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Is this text an original English document - if it is a translation from another language then definitely - it\'s Byzantium or Byzantine[civilization, history, times, genius, Italy....] - a tricky choice, which in itself would drive me to choose Byzantium. The mispelling of \"mystery\" could indicate a translation.

The text could be similar to one of these US or non-native English speaking popular history sites which apparently use Byzantine as a name for the empire - I don\'t think they should, but that could have been the intention of the author (in which case correct to Byzantium).



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Note added at 7 hrs 0 min (2003-09-19 19:22:06 GMT)
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Please note - I\'m trying to deal with the question \"what was the intention of the author\" - everyone here is quite clear about when we would all use Byzantine & Byzantium !

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Note added at 7 hrs 32 mins (2003-09-19 19:54:39 GMT)
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If I was restyling the text, more options: \"monuments of Byzantium\" (better than \'from\'in that context? -\'from\' here is clumsier, although not impossible), \"monuments from Byzantine days\" (history, civilization, genius,), \"monuments from the Byzantine past\"....
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you very much, Giuli and everyone. It seems there are no evidence that "monuments from Byzantine" (without a noun) may be treated as quite a usual colloquial expression. It's pity I cannot award points to everyone. I also found a lot of additional info new to me. Thank you for informative answers !"
+3
8 mins

Byzantium

OR possibly the noun *is* Byzantium the Greek city on which Constantinople was built.

In 73 AD Byzantium was incorporated into the Roman empire. Ca. ... Constantinople. Founded in the year 324 by emperor Constantine. The city burned in the year 532.
Reference:

http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/Byzantium/time.html

viking.no/e/turkey/e-bysant.htm

Peer comment(s):
agree DGK T-I : I would use this.It is faintly possible that Byzantine was used as a name as well as an ajective in the past (perhaps poetically) - however there seems absoluteLY NO dictionary evid. for this - anyway, use Byzantium.(or missing civilization/history?)
6 mins
agree David Moore (X) : Me too
34 mins
agree Christopher Crockett : Yes, "Byzantium" can refer to the Empire or the city; although the monuments specifically mentioned are all in Ravenna. But this poorly written text doesn't seem to be concerned with accuracy. Giuli's points are well taken.
1 hr
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+1
1 min

monuments from the Byzantine Empire

Random House

Byz·an·tine (bizÆÃn t"nÅ, -t#nÅ, b#ÆzÃn-, bi zanÆtin), adj.
1. of or pertaining to Byzantium.
2. of or pertaining to the Byzantine Empire.
3. noting or pertaining to the architecture of the Byzantine Empire and to architecture influenced by or imitating it: characterized by masonry construction, round arches, impost blocks, low domes on pendentives, the presence of fine, spiky foliage patterns in low relief on stone capitals and moldings, and the use of frescoes, mosaics, and revetments of fine stone to cover whole interiors.
4. Fine Arts. pertaining to or designating the style of the fine or decorative arts developed and elaborated in the Byzantine Empire and its provinces: characterized chiefly by an ecclesiastically prescribed iconography, highly formal structure, severe confinement of pictorial space to a shallow depth, and the use of rich, often sumptuous color.
5. (sometimes l.c.) complex or intricate: a deal requiring Byzantine financing.
6. (sometimes l.c.) characterized by elaborate scheming and intrigue, esp. for the gaining of political power or favor: Byzantine methods for holding on to his chairmanship.
7. of or pertaining to the Byzantine Church.
–n.
8. a native or inhabitant of Byzantium.
[1590–1600; < LL B&zant#nus of BYZANTIUM; see -INE1]

Meaning numbre 4 explains it very well, I believe

Mike :)

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Note added at 9 mins (2003-09-19 12:31:34 GMT)
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In Webster\'s New Universal Unabridged Dicionary, looking up \"Byzantine\" as a noun, when alone it means a native or residing in Byzantium.

Mike :)
Peer comment(s):
agree DGK T-I : OED & Collins too
51 mins
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+4
11 mins

Byzantine Italy, Byzantime times

other possibilities
Peer comment(s):
agree David Sirett : Yes, because all the monuments mentioned are Byzantine-style buildings in Ravenna, and Sicis is a company based in Ravenna.
1 hr
agree Christopher Crockett : "Byzantine Italy" is definitely the clearest, for the reasons David gives.
1 hr
agree DGK T-I : one possibility (if we don't want to say Byzantium, and leave it at that) - Ravenna was for a long time the capital of Byzantine held Italy,and for long periods parts of Italy were part of the Byzantine empire (after the fall of the Western Roman Empire).
1 hr
agree agtranslat : Absolutely.
2 hrs
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+4
40 mins

Byzantium is the noun, Byzantine is the adjective

so you can speak of "Byzantium" or "The Byzantine Empire".
HTH

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Note added at 2003-09-19 13:06:50 (GMT)
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Byzantine acan be used in teh sense of \"in the stylt of the Byzantine Empire/Period\" - like \"Baroque, Norman\" etc.
So if you say \"monuments from Byzantium\", this makes clear that they are genuine monuments from the empire, not \"Byzantine-style\" monuments from somewhere else.
The adjective can also mean \"complicated, impossible to understand\" - \"After President Bush announced his bzyantine rules for government
funding of stem cell research, it turns out \"that one single foundation
may own the patent to that precious cell\" - http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2001-August/0003... - so a \"byzantine monument\" could mean one with a very complicated design - \"monument from Byzantium\" just avoids any ambiguity.
Peer comment(s):
agree Sarah Ponting : yes, it certainly looks wrong to me used as a noun
1 hr
agree DGK T-I : should be {Dusty,as always goes straight to the heart of the question}
1 hr
agree Tony M : Yes, I don't know if it is ever used as 'THE Byzantine' in the same way as we'd say 'The Levant' or 'The Argentine', but I've never come across it; so it looks as if you have EITHER an omission OR an error; but we can't tell you WHICH!
2 hrs
agree Chris Rowson (X)
15 hrs
Thanks everybody!
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+2
42 mins

It's a mistake

The only instance the English word Byzantine is used as a noun is when it refers to the people: the Byzantine; people of the city of Byzantium, that is, just like the way "French", an adjective in other cases, is used in the sentence "the French like wine."
(Acc.to Merriam-Webster Online, Webster's Third Dict., and Encyclopaedia Britannica. Also, Google gave about 612,000 hits on Byzantine, I could take a peek at the first three pages only, all were in line with the above comments.)


The names of the monuments in your text suggests that the original was in Italian, hence might be the mistake, during the process of translation (very unfortunate :-)

If I were you I would use,

monuments of the Byzantine civilization
mon.'s of Byzantium

or

of Byzantine empire

but not Byzantine Empire,

because there's no historical entity under that name, the name of the empire was Eastern Roman Empire.
Peer comment(s):
agree Sarah Ponting : Byzantine is certainly an adjective and shouldn't be used as a noun
1 hr
agree DGK T-I : That's the correct modern usage & (as I've said)there is no dictionary evidence of anything else.
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
+3
1 hr

from the Byzantine period

(this is the most common way of saying it when referring to art and architecture)

Byzantine is an adjective and in this case should modify a noun.

Yes, I think you can say "Byzantine monuments"--In fact,I prefer it; it's more concise, and the sentence is already a bit too wordy.

I would also start a new sentence after "Sant'Apollinare Nuovo" i.e.

Nuovo. You will feel...

Also, "You will feel yourself pulled back..."

rather than "you will feel pulled back"

mistery should be mystery.

Peer comment(s):
agree Sarah Ponting : I prefer "Byzantine monuments" too
19 mins
agree Mario Marcolin : Most definitely...Even though the Exarchate lasted some 200 years, it was still in the periphery of the empire..
1 hr
agree DGK T-I : there's no problem in saying 'Byzantine monuments','monuments from Byzantine times'if that is desired
5 hrs
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