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helping with filling in vs to fill in
Sep 27, 2004 08:43
20 yrs ago
12 viewers *
English term

''Does not it'' v ''Does it not''

Non-PRO English Art/Literary Linguistics Grammar
I read the following sentence in an English magazine:
''*** Does not it *** still prop up tobacco prices and collect taxes on cigarette sales?''

Is it possible in English to start a question with ''Does not it'' instead of ''Does it not'' (or ''Doesn't it'')?
Responses
4 +12 I wouldn't use it
4 +4 No
5 +2 Some clarification...
5 -1 Doesn't it?
4 -2 yes

Discussion

Non-ProZ.com Sep 28, 2004:
I have found out that it is probably not used in modern English, so I would't use it myself. However, the odd construction "Does not it" seems to be more or less popular with politicians (see JohnGBell's link). According to Google, it is also used in certain religious contexts, so it is perhaps not wrong from a grammatical point of view but, nevertheless, it sounds pompous and should be avoided in everyday speech/writing.

Thank you all for your help.
JohnGBell Sep 27, 2004:
I think I would agree with the sentiment: It is not wrong, it sounds strange and I wouldn't use it.
Non-ProZ.com Sep 27, 2004:
JohnGBell, this unusual construction seems to be pretty common in British Parliament. This is what Mr. Forth said: "**Does not it **seem odd that a private Member's Bill should be graced by explanatory notes that bear all the imprints of the civil service?"
Source: http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm19990...

So maybe this construction is not wrong at all, but even if it is correct (archaic?, formal?, "Parliament-speak?, ...) I would definitely not use it myself. Sounds really strange.
Non-ProZ.com Sep 27, 2004:
@ John Bowden: The weekly "The Economist" is extremely formal, so I thought that this odd "Does not it" was not necessarily grammatically wrong, but somehow archaic and therefore only used in very formal or academic writing.
John Bowden Sep 27, 2004:
Having I don't think it's a typo - the author was trying to be extremely formal for rhetorical effect and got it wrong!
Non-ProZ.com Sep 27, 2004:
I also think it sounds odd, but I just would like to find out whether "The Economist" wrote something that is grammatically acceptable (albeit unusual) or whether it's just a typo.

Responses

+12
3 mins
Selected

I wouldn't use it

Hi Christian,

I wouldn't use this, it sounds archaic at best and ungrammatical at worst.

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Note added at 5 mins (2004-09-27 08:48:36 GMT)
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If pushed, I would say \"Does it not still ...\", but I would usually try to sidestep this with a more elegant construction, such as \"Is it not the case that this still ...\"
Peer comment(s):
agree Kristina Thorne
0 min
agree Calou
3 mins
agree vixen
16 mins
agree Heidi Stone-Schaller : "doesn't it..." or perhaps as Ian said "does it not (still)..." but certainly not "does not it..."
17 mins
agree cmwilliams (X)
46 mins
agree mrrobkoc
49 mins
agree Anna Moorby DipTrans : does not it is incorrect
2 hrs
agree James Calder : You could also say 'Does it not continue to prop up ...?
4 hrs
agree Peter Skipp
4 hrs
agree Ramesh Madhavan : The question is not if it is grammatically correct or not. May be it is correct! The question is: How do we say it today? Language is for communicating: Not for poking holes in Granny's grammar rules!
4 hrs
agree Refugio : I think it is a question of archaic usage (so appropriate for Parliament) rather than incorrect grammar.
7 hrs
agree nlingua
10 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I wouldn't use it either, but this odd construction seems to be popular with politicians; it is also sometimes used in religious rhetoric (according to Google). Anyway, thank you very much for your help. :-)"
+4
2 mins

No

Not possible
Peer comment(s):
agree Kristina Thorne : I wouldn´t. Use Does it not.
1 min
agree Tegan Raleigh : yes, "does it not" is good; "does not it" is wrong.
4 mins
agree Heidi Stone-Schaller
19 mins
agree David Moore (X)
26 mins
agree Peter Skipp
4 hrs
disagree nicholasgerrish : doesn't it means does not it. OK as used in a court of law, so ok, though rather quaint for today.
3354 days
Something went wrong...
-1
4 mins

Doesn't it?

It is a question tag, it normally come at the end of an affirmative sentence

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Note added at 4 mins (2004-09-27 08:48:22 GMT)
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typo comes
Peer comment(s):
disagree Peter Skipp : No quarrel with your definition, but this form is only spoken (or written only when reporting speech verbatim)
4 hrs
Thank you Peter
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+2
3 hrs

Some clarification...

Like other Germanic languages, English word order in some constructions tends to be different dependng on whether the collocation contains a noun or a pronoun.
In German, for example, the word order is "Er gab *es mir*" [he gave it to me], i.e. (subject/verb/direct object/indirect object) in a pronoun collocation, but "Er gab *mir das Buch*" [he gave me the book] (subject/verb/indirect object/direct object) when it contains a noun.
It is not usually possible to say "er gab mir es" or "er gab das Buch mir".

similarly, in English it is possible to say "Does not the sun rise every day?", but not "Does not it rise every day".

The writer in the Economist is obviously trying to be very formal, but is making an incorrect back formation from "doesn't it" to "does it not" - even Economist writers get things wrong sometimes (and not only their economic forecasts!)
HTH

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Note added at 2004-09-27 12:38:44 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

sorry, I mean \"an incorrect back formation from \"doesn\'t it\" to \"does not it\"!

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Note added at 2004-09-27 14:20:39 (GMT)
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\"Parliament-speak\" is notoriously archaic, affected and contrived (\"My Honourable Friend, should he once more seek to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker...\"), used by people who are frewuently trying to sound more erudite and \"posh\" than they really are - just listen to \"Today in Parliament\" - so it\'s not surprising that MPs would tend to use this incorrect form. Presumably at some time in the history of English \"does not it\" did exist, with its contracted form \"doesn\'t it\", but it certainly isn\'t standard or \"correct\" now!
Peer comment(s):
agree Peter Skipp
44 mins
agree Heidi Stone-Schaller : good explanation
1 day 7 hrs
Something went wrong...
-2
3 mins

yes

when you consider that "doesn't it" is a shortening of "does not it" it then makes sense.

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Note added at 9 mins (2004-09-27 08:52:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

it certainly sounds unusual, because of the more common doesn\'t it.

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Note added at 5 hrs 16 mins (2004-09-27 14:00:33 GMT)
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Even if it doesn\'t seem acceptable to the grammar purusts, \"does not it\" is often found in prose and poetry and, it would seem, in the British Parliment.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Does not it seem especially unfortunate that a local authority team should inspect a grammar school that the authority had consistently tried to close?

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm19959...
Peer comment(s):
agree Jane Gabbutt : But I think you would almost always use the shortened version.
5 mins
agree cjperera : Yes - I would allow this under artistic licence for the reason you state...
13 mins
disagree David Moore (X) : As an ENS, I cannot agree to using the long form in any circumstances. The short form, yes, but that's not the question....
24 mins
disagree IanW (X) : With David
1 hr
disagree Orsolya Mance : It's not so much about short and long forms - both would be correct had this been a question tag - but those can only be used AFTER questions.
2 hrs
disagree John Bowden : "doesn't it" or "does it not"
2 hrs
neutral James Calder : I stand corrected. If it's good enough for our right honourable friends it's good enough for me. I still prefer the less awkward-sounding alternatives though.
4 hrs
Something went wrong...
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