officier ministériel

12:13 Sep 13, 2019
This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer

French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general) / Company Aarticles of Association (Belgium)
French term or phrase: officier ministériel
La société est représentée dans tous les actes, y compris ceux où interviennent un fonctionnaire public ou un officier ministériel et en justice, soit par deux administrateurs agissant conjointement ou par un administrateur délégué agissant seul, lesquels ne doivent pas justifier d'une délibération préalable du Conseil envers les tiers, en ce compris Messieurs les Conservateurs des Hypothèques

This could be a ministerial official but I have also seen the term used for a notary

Please, no guesses !!
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:37


Summary of answers provided
4 +1officier ministériel (anyone vested with public authority)
Daryo
4officer of the court or legal system
Eliza Hall
4 -1(AmE) Ministerial Official (BrE/IrE) Public Officer
Adrian MM.
Summary of reference entries provided
Officier ministériel
B D Finch

  

Answers


53 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
(AmE) Ministerial Official (BrE/IrE) Public Officer


Explanation:
We will - again for now - leave 'Commissioner for Oaths' swearing an affidavit or 'Statement of Truth'.

The last time I saw the term of 'Ministerial Officer', to wit: in connection with 'ministerial agency' and vicarious liability in ENG law, was in the standard textbook of James on Tort(s), 1969 (= in my first undergrad year of half a century ago).



Example sentence(s):
  • US: A Notary Public is an official of integrity appointed by state government —typically by the secretary of state — .... These official acts are called notarizations, or notarial acts. Notaries are publicly commissioned as “ministerial” officials
  • A notary public (or notary or public notary) of the common law is a public officer constituted by law to serve the public in non-contentious matters usually concerned with estates, deeds, powers-of-attorney, and foreign and international business.

    Reference: http://www.nationalnotary.org/knowledge-center/about-notarie...
Adrian MM.
United Kingdom
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 188

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  B D Finch: This French term doesn't seem to be covered by any English term.
2 hrs
  -> - though is by a US-Am- one of Ministerial Officer, esp. in the French-flavo(u)red Fed. State of Louisana www.nationalnotary.org/notary-bulletin/blog/2011/11/common-... + my 'Swinging Sixties' Eng. tort law generation would have no doubts.

disagree  Eliza Hall: I was going to vote "neutral" on this until I saw your discussion of US notaries. They are not remotely equivalent to notaires and the US term "ministerial" means something very different -- see "PS" in my explanation below.
4 hrs
  -> It doesn't really matter. If the translation is for UK use, City of London Scrivener-Linguist Notaries routinely certify as correct a literal translation of 'Ministerial Officer', but neither 'Professional Officer' (Bridge), nor 'law official' (Navarre).
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
officer of the court or legal system


Explanation:
The people covered by this FR term (see definition below from the French Ministry of Justice) are almost entirely some type of lawyer, court bailiff, or other judicial-system personnel. All US lawyers, public and private, are "officers of the court." Because the FR term includes notaires, which means a type of non-court-appearing lawyer in France and the UK but not in the US, I would add "...or legal system" to encompass lawyers who may not technically be officers of the court.

The FR term also includes certain people who could be called "public officials" in English, but that is covered directly by the previous term (fonctionnaire public), so you don't need to work it into your translation of officier ministériel.

"Un officier public (ou ministériel) est une personne titulaire d'un office conféré par l'Etat et nommé par décision d'un ministre. Les avoués près les cour d'appel, les huissiers de justice, les notaires, les avocats au Conseil d'Etat et à la Cour de cassation sont des officiers ministériels. Certains d'entre eux sont également des officiers publics, en raison de leur pouvoir d'authentifier des actes juridiques ou judiciaires et de procéder à l'exécution des décisions de justice (Exemple : notaires, huissiers de justice)."

https://droit-finances.commentcamarche.com/faq/4249-officier...


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Note added at 5 hrs (2019-09-13 17:22:48 GMT)
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PS re the US term "ministerial": it doesn't mean AT ALL the same thing as the FR ministériel</>. Definition:

"Ministerial: Done under the direction of a supervisor; not involving discretion or policymaking.

Ministerial describes an act or a function that conforms to an instruction or a prescribed procedure. It connotes obedience. A ministerial act or duty is a function performed without the use of judgment by the person performing the act or duty."

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/ministerial

Eliza Hall
United States
Local time: 12:37
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 125

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Adrian MM.: Officer of the Court in the UK would connote a Solicitor. Even City Civil-law Scrivener Notaries are not 'Officers of the Court', plus 'of the legal system' begs the question which one.
1 hr
  -> No question-begging here: whichever legal system is at issue. Unless you want to read the contract as meaning the company's representatives can only represent it before a certain country's legal system, which is not what this means.

neutral  Daryo: what about bounty hunters? they fit the given definition.. // that was my point - they are doing the police job (=> vested with the same authority for a limited purpose) but are not "officers" of the legal system" => your translation is too narrow.
2 days 3 mins
  -> Uh, no. Having a license to practice your profession (46 US states license bounty hunters, 4 states prohibit the profession) does not make you an "officer" of the legal system.
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1 day 2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
officier ministériel (anyone vested with public authority)


Explanation:
..

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 5 hrs (2019-09-15 17:29:11 GMT)
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L' "officier ministériel" est un professionnel qui, agissant en exécution d'une décision des autorités de l'Etat dispose d'un privilège pour exercer une activité qui, en général, constitue une tâche de service public.

feel free to argue ... with the definition.

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:37
Native speaker of: Native in SerbianSerbian, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 174

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Julie Barber: I agree with this format. It's not for us to actually explain the legal terms. If somebody is buying into a company, their lawyers or whoever can explain French law. We provide the best translation and that's different
1 day 17 hrs
  -> Yes, as long as the meaning of some "untranslatable" term is not misrepresented, it's good enough // up to them to dig deeper... Thanks!
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Reference comments


3 hrs peer agreement (net): +2
Reference: Officier ministériel

Reference information:
Given the definition of this term, it might be better to leave it in French with a translator's note or explanation in square brackets.

"L' "officier ministériel" est un professionnel qui, agissant en exécution d'une décision des autorités de l'Etat dispose d'un privilège pour exercer une activité qui, en général, constitue une tâche de service public. Il en est ainsi notamment des commissaires-priseurs, notaires, des huissiers et des avocats au Conseil d'Etat et à la Cour de cassation (en revanche les autres avocats ne sont pas titulaires d'un office). Voir les informations relatives au statut particulier de ces avocats sur le site du Conseil de l'Ordre des avocats aux Conseils

Les officiers ministériels sont titulaires d'une "charge". Ils disposent du droit de présenter leur successeur. Ils font partie d'une catégorie plus vaste que sont les "Officiers publics " qui dressent des actes authentiques et obligatoires. Mais tous les officiers publics ne sont pas des Officiers Ministériels. Par exemple les " Officiers de l'État civil ", les Greffiers des Cours et Tribunaux, les Conservateurs des Hypothèques sont des officiers publics mais ne sont pas titulaires d'une charge."


    https://www.dictionnaire-juridique.com/definition/officier-ministeriel.php
B D Finch
France
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 509

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Ph_B (X): "it might be better to leave it in French with a translator's note or explanation in square brackets"
23 hrs
  -> Thanks Philippe. Yes.
agree  Daryo: leave it + explanation / in many other countries you'll also find people (or entities) that are NOT directly part of the state apparatus but are still entrusted with exercising some form of public authority.
1 day 1 hr
  -> Thanks Daryo
disagree  Eliza Hall: If you leave it in FR, then the company's representatives can only represent it before FR "officiers ministériels" because the lack of translation makes it impossible to determine who might play an equivalent role in an EN-speaking country.
1 day 22 hrs
  -> You are assuming that this is intended for a procedure in an EN-speaking country. That is not necessarily the case at all.
agree  Julie Barber: I would also take this route as the term is specific to French law. Agree with Daryo. It isn't for us to deviate from that with an interpretation. You also make a valid point to Eliza
2 days 17 hrs
  -> Thanks Julie
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