| Pagine: < [1 2 3 4] > | How satisfied are you with KudoZ answers at ProZ.com? Iniziatore argomento: lux
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Mats Wiman 
Svezia
Local time: 09:24
Membro (2000)
Da Tedesco a Svedese
+ ...
In memoriam | Keep your thoughts to yourselves please! | Jul 6, 2006 |
Ian Winick wrote:
(d) Whether, for example, the English-Dutch site would benefit from my trying to answer questions based on my knowledge of German is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that it would be very irritating for everyone, particularly the asker.
It is all a matter of opinion indeed. I find it utterly uninteresting to hear if Ian or somebody else find an answer, an answerer or an asker "chaff", "stupid", "non-native", "Swedish" or whatever.
The only interesting thing ist to watch questions and answers and make your OWN judgement about them - not trying to rally others to cry "chaff", "stupid", "non-native", "Swedish" or whatever.
Ian also wrote:
You (Mats) seem to suggest that it would be a very important part of the process.
Shame on you. You should know better than trying to villify my view on this subject.
[Edited at 2006-07-06 16:51]
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ucraina
Local time: 10:24
Membro (2004)
Da Inglese a Russo
+ ...
Mats Wiman wrote:
I find it utterly uninteresting to hear if Ian or somebody else find an answer, an answerer or an asker "chaff", "stupid", "non-native", "Swedish" or whatever.
The only interesting thing ist to watch questions and answers and make your OWN judgement about them - not trying to rally others to cry "chaff", "stupid", "non-native", "Swedish" or whatever.
THAT was really rude, Mats...
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 09:24
Da Tedesco a Inglese
+ ...
| Keep your thoughts to yourselves please! | Jul 6, 2006 |
"Keep your thoughts to yourselves please!"
Rii-iight, so we should keep our opinions to ourselves while you are perfectly entitled to trundle out your tired opinions, all with the entirely self-serving purpose of allowing you to mess around in lots of different language pairings without getting your sensitive feelings hurt whenever someone finds fault with your suggestion. (Any customer who is actually impressed by someone with a few points in 700 language pairings deserves all they... See more "Keep your thoughts to yourselves please!"
Rii-iight, so we should keep our opinions to ourselves while you are perfectly entitled to trundle out your tired opinions, all with the entirely self-serving purpose of allowing you to mess around in lots of different language pairings without getting your sensitive feelings hurt whenever someone finds fault with your suggestion. (Any customer who is actually impressed by someone with a few points in 700 language pairings deserves all they get, but hey, that's just my opinion.)
Perhaps you could explain to me how you're entitled to your opinion and I am not? And "Keep your thoughts to yourselves please!". it's not a million miles away from the "Mind your own business" that got you into hot water not long ago.
Shame on YOU, Mats. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mats Wiman
Svezia
Local time: 09:24
Membro (2000)
Da Tedesco a Svedese
+ ...
In memoriam | Keep your thoughts to yourselves | Jul 6, 2006 |
does not mean that you are not entitked to your opinion or that you are not entitled to air them, just as little as "Mind you own business" was.
What I am referring to is this incessant criticism of questions, answers and answerers to no avail. KudoZ was created not to have questions, answers and answerers judged by you or besserwissers but to offer an opportunity for translators and others to get help or help.
Your elitist discussions about what is chaff or not is uninteresti... See more does not mean that you are not entitked to your opinion or that you are not entitled to air them, just as little as "Mind you own business" was.
What I am referring to is this incessant criticism of questions, answers and answerers to no avail. KudoZ was created not to have questions, answers and answerers judged by you or besserwissers but to offer an opportunity for translators and others to get help or help.
Your elitist discussions about what is chaff or not is uninteresting and pathetic.
Answer questions or do not, but don't whine when others (in your view not enough qualified persons) dare to ask or answer questions.
KudoZ is a service - not a club.
[Edited at 2006-07-06 17:30] ▲ Collapse
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IanW (X)
Local time: 09:24
Da Tedesco a Inglese
+ ...
"Keep your thoughts to yourselves" does not mean that you are not entitked to your opinion or that you are not entitled to air them, just as little as "Mind you own business" was.
Is that supposed to be an explanation? It certainly doesn't explain anything as far as I can see. And if you don't understand the subtle nuances of the English language, you should be doubly careful. Especially when the words you chose were far from subtle to begin with.
Your elitist discussions about what is chaff or not is uninteresting and pathetic.
Thanks. Nice to see that, yet again, you have abandoned all pretence of manners. Don't appreciate being called a "Besserwisser" either.
Answer questions or do not, but don't whine when others (in your view not enough qualified persons) dare to ask or answer questions.
Don't you think things have gone downhill enough? And, while we're at it: Answer questions or do not, but don't whine when someone points out that your answer is laughable (I can only speak for German-English here).
And if I have something to say, I will say it - and if you say something that I find utterly ludicrous (to date, that is almost everything), I will comment if I feel so inclined.
KudoZ is a service - not a club.
[Edited at 2006-07-06 17:30]
Is it really, I thought it was a community. If it were a service, I would be a lot more vocal about its misgivings, I can assure you.
| | | | BAmary (X)
Canada
Local time: 03:24
Da Inglese a Spagnolo
+ ...
| A way of bringing down our profession | Jul 6, 2006 |
Accepting rubbish and on top of it being grateful for it is a way of bringing down even more our already battered profession. Unfortunately, our profession is one of the few anyone who speaks at least two languages can start practicing overnight. I know this is not so, but many people seem to think it is. Think about it: would you accept to be examined by a doctor who didn’t go to Medical School? Would you accept to be represented in Court by an attorney who didn’t attend Law School? So why ... See more Accepting rubbish and on top of it being grateful for it is a way of bringing down even more our already battered profession. Unfortunately, our profession is one of the few anyone who speaks at least two languages can start practicing overnight. I know this is not so, but many people seem to think it is. Think about it: would you accept to be examined by a doctor who didn’t go to Medical School? Would you accept to be represented in Court by an attorney who didn’t attend Law School? So why can anyone call him/herself a “Translator” and even be accepted in our Translation community when they are obviously not qualified to translate? And I’m not referring to mistakes, but to those people who systematically answer always first and most of the times wrong and even argue about it! Please, don’t get me wrong, holding a degree is no guarantee of delivering a good translation, nor is a translator without a degree bound to be a bad one. There are people interested in languages who know the trade out of experience and hard work (as they say: nothing like an old horse for the hard road), but these people are a minority. Let’s face it, the translation profession is full of charlatans, and this is sometimes reflected in our dear Proz. I have no problem with the “open to everyone” concept, but as I said before, if you don’t know or are not sure about an answer, you just can’t answer anything and give yourself 5 points of confidence, can you? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Courtney McConnel (X)
Francia
Local time: 09:24
Da Francese a Inglese
+ ...
| The wrongdoers aren't discouraged by criticism, but the 'rightdoers' are | Jul 7, 2006 |
All I can say, after reading this now heated debate, is that I want to get people's feedback, I want some of the shy amongst us to feel confident in voicing their opinions, "right" or "wrong". I want to be able to voice my ideas when I'm feeling shy, and even though I don't answer for languages other than my own, etc., at times I get reactions from people that makes me feel my contribution was totally worthless & unappreciated...which is ironic because I'm usually just trying to help out and off... See more All I can say, after reading this now heated debate, is that I want to get people's feedback, I want some of the shy amongst us to feel confident in voicing their opinions, "right" or "wrong". I want to be able to voice my ideas when I'm feeling shy, and even though I don't answer for languages other than my own, etc., at times I get reactions from people that makes me feel my contribution was totally worthless & unappreciated...which is ironic because I'm usually just trying to help out and offer support (sometimes even moral).
Let's be honest here. When I myself ask a question, I am not so clueless about the reply that I will just use whatever someone offers, so I don't think the 'lead you astray' arugment applies here as we're not blinded or totally dependent. I'm also not looking to develop a thick skin and learn how to quit taking things personally here. I get enough pressure from the client! : ) I also consider this as an excuse, really, for someone to unload their frustration.
In short, there is a way for everyone to speak their mind without attacking another, and let's reach for this diplomatic route as it will provide all of us, with our varying degrees of sensitivity, the outstanding results we seek. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nikki Graham
Regno Unito
Local time: 08:24
Da Spagnolo a Inglese
| Blind leading the blind | Jul 7, 2006 |
Courtney McConnel wrote:
Let's be honest here. When I myself ask a question, I am not so clueless about the reply that I will just use whatever someone offers, so I don't think the 'lead you astray' arugment applies here as we're not blinded or totally dependent.
You may know what you are talking about, but, unfortunately, it is staringly obvious that many people in the KudoZ arena I participate in (Spanish-English) haven't got a clue and when faced with a straight-forward dictionary-/guess-based translation and the correct answer, which may actually be somewhat complicated to understand, consistently choose the literal option. It is also disappointing to see rather inappropriate renderings of my language being suggested and chosen by (sorry, hate to say it but it's true) non-native speakers, despite the fact that I have filtered as much of this behaviour out as possible. Not seeing it, however, doesn't make it go away and doesn't necessarily improve KudoZ.
I fully agree with Cindy Chadd
It would really be nice to see less guesswork and more hard facts, but unfortunately it's just a game to some people, who never seem to think about the consequences that their ridiculous answers might have if the askers actually choose them and (even worse) use them in their translations. I hate to say it, but these people seem to outnumber the ones who give well-reasoned, well-supported answers.
Personally, I have always objected to labelling KudoZ as a free-for-all game. If we truly are professionals who care about correct terminology, then asking for help and giving it should be taken very seriously indeed.
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Dyran Altenburg (X)
Stati Uniti
Local time: 03:24
Da Inglese a Spagnolo
+ ...
Mats Wiman wrote:
What I am referring to is this incessant criticism of questions, answers and answerers to no avail.
You are aware that as long as we follow the site rules we can say *anything we want*, right?
Right.
--
Dyran
(who chooses to help people and be helped by people who know what they're talking about)
| | | | df49f (X)
Francia
Local time: 09:24
| how often are wrong answers selected and entered in glossary?... | Jul 7, 2006 |
Textklick wrote:
How often have you seen an answer in the KOG that was selected, whilst being clearly incorrect?
... how often? very very often....at least in my language pairs (EN/FR & F/EN)... (it would take about 5 minutes to find a dozen examples just over a couple of days)
And in those same pairs, there are many many ludicrous answers proposed by many many clueless answerers and chosen by clueless askers (not even mentioning the issue of agrees given to obviously incorrect answers by clueless peers as a kindergarten-level infantile tit-for-tat retaliation tactic against some answerers they don't like, that end up encouraging clueless askers to choose an clearly inadequate answer )
df
| | | | Textklick
Local time: 08:24
Da Tedesco a Inglese
+ ...
In memoriam | So? The correct one could still be there on the KOG page | Jul 9, 2006 |
df49f wrote: Textklick wrote:
How often have you seen an answer in the KOG that was selected, whilst being clearly incorrect?
... how often? very very often....at least in my language pairs (EN/FR & F/EN)... (it would take about 5 minutes to find a dozen examples just over a couple of days) And in those same pairs, there are many many ludicrous answers proposed by many many clueless answerers and chosen by clueless askers (not even mentioning the issue of agrees given to obviously incorrect answers by clueless peers as a kindergarten-level infantile tit-for-tat retaliation tactic against some answerers they don't like, that end up encouraging clueless askers to choose an clearly inadequate answer ) df
Hi df,
So you are saying it's hard to find the correct answer in the French glossary among those that were not selected?
I can only speak for my language direction, where it's easy to sieze gems from among those that were 'cast aside'.
I believe there is indeed some of your "encouraging clueless askers to choose an clearly inadequate answer" that goes on in DE>EN; albeit not at an alarming level.
Maybe you'd better learn German or - looking forward - we should all learn Chinese, which looks to becoming a very profitable little number.
This whole argument is leading nowhere IMO. I see answers/opinions concerning the topic raised, but are there positive suggestions being made, rather than complaints?
[Edited at 2006-07-09 17:35]
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 09:24
Da Tedesco a Inglese
+ ...
| Start the ball rolling | Jul 9, 2006 |
Textklick wrote:
This whole argument is leading nowhere IMO. I see answers/opinions concerning the topic raised, but are there positive suggestions being made, rather than complaints?
Good idea, Chris m'boy - you can start the ball rolling, preferably on a new thread. I'm sure you'll find plenty of support and encouraging ideas. And, needless to say, the standard knee-jerk reaction from Point-Grabbers Unlimited.
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| Thinking aloud... | Jul 9, 2006 |
- On one hand: if you cannot identify the right answer you should probably not be translating that subject....
- On the other: if you don´t know the specific subject you should not be answering that Kudoz question.
- Finally, just a crazy idea: What if ...
the pointing system would be eliminated?
or maybe a new, parallel not-for-points system would be started?
Please be nice with me... just chatting here!
ANDRES
| | | | df49f (X)
Francia
Local time: 09:24
| yes yes and yes :) | Jul 9, 2006 |
Lettytb wrote:
- On one hand: if you cannot identify the right answer you should probably not be translating that subject....
- On the other: if you don´t know the specific subject you should not be answering that Kudoz question.
- Finally, just a crazy idea: What if ...
the pointing system would be eliminated?
or maybe a new, parallel not-for-points system would be started?
Please be nice with me... just chatting here!
ANDRES
Bravo! 3 excellent recommendations / suggestions!
(glad YOU said it, if I had done so myself, some would have jumped me for supposedly being nasty or elitist!!
... and I'm not just being "nice" because you asked! I agree with you 100%
dominique
| | | | df49f (X)
Francia
Local time: 09:24
| finding gems in rejected correct answers... | Jul 9, 2006 |
Textklick wrote:
So you are saying it's hard to find the correct answer in the French glossary among those that were not selected?
hmm... let's just say it takes some digging to sort through the junk, which sort of defeats the very purpose of a glossary!
I can only speak for my language direction, where it's easy to sieze gems from among those that were 'cast aside'.
absolutely! on those rare occasions where I've spared some time to search the KUZ, the only gems were precisely to be dug out among the "cast aside" answers! (no generalizing implied though, considering these occasions are very very rare and therefore the output data is statistically non-significant.)
I believe there is indeed some of your "encouraging clueless askers to choose a clearly inadequate answer" that goes on in DE>EN; albeit not at an alarming level.
ah! welcome to the club! after all, why should we FR-EN-FR alone have that privilege?!!
This whole argument is leading nowhere IMO. I see answers/opinions concerning the topic raised, but are there positive suggestions being made, rather than complaints?
This rehashed argument unfortunatley never leads anywhere...
No complaints from me though (am a non-paying user, so have no right to complain anyway and I wouldn't even think of doing it!) - just reporting on observed facts!
... what 'positive suggestions' would YOU have (aside that is from playing ostrich)? - thanks for asking this very relevant question. And our thanks to Andres for his 3 very positive and right on target suggestions.
stay well - dominique
[Edited at 2006-07-09 21:47]
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