ProZ.com global directory of translation services
 The translation workplace
Ideas

 
Pages in topic:   [1 2] >
User
Thread poster: Jason Ma
How closely they are related: Turkish and Salar language?

Jason Ma  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 15:16
English to Chinese
+ ...
Feb 11, 2009

During my childhood I always heard my grandpa and my maternal uncles speaking Salar language which is used by Salar nationality residing mostly in Qinghai of China. It's a shame I didn't learn this unique language, since it was regarded "less useful" even by my Grandpa. In 2002, during a trip in Sydney, Australia, amazingly, I found my friend, Mr. Han ( a 100% Salar, I'm just a quarter ), could converse easily with the owner of a kabab stand owner from Turkey. Apparently, there's some kind of connection in these two languages.
I am very curious, how close these two languages are related, I don't know anything about Turkish.
I would like to use a few sentences and words from my childhood memory to check out from Turkish speaking colleagues:

Buri, Xighei, Aoshi, diot, yizi... [one, two, three, four, five...]
abasi ixla pit vuler [father finished work]
inji uyinne varmix [they went back home]
garla vahurei? [where are you going]
mendala vahurei [i'm going over there]
axi susu vararao? [is there any noodle soup]
vara [there's soup available]
yaohuara [no soup avialable]
Salar garqi mae bixilimese [I can't speak Salar language]

Thanks


[Edited at 2009-02-11 13:55 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 
Nancy Ozturk  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:16
Turkish to English
+ ...
Salar and Turkish Feb 11, 2009

I am not a linguist, but from the examples you provided the two languages are obviously closely related. I looked at Google and various sites say that Salar is a dialect of Uygur Turkish. Other sites show that there has been some research carried out lately on Salar. "It's never too late to learn," as they/we say, so I say you have a go at it and then come and visit us in Turkey!

Direct link Reply with quote
 

Özden Arıkan  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:16
Member
English to Turkish
How do you pronounce 'x' exactly? Feb 11, 2009

Hello Jason,

Interesting topic. I have yet to research a bit on Salar language, as this is the first time I even hear of it. And when I look at the examples you post, at first sight there's no similarity to Turkish, but a bit closer, there is a couple of striking similarities. I wonder, though, how you pronounce the letter 'x' here - is the pronounciation close to a 'sh' (as in 'shoe')? Even not, it might just be that one sound has evolved differently in the two languages.

Here are the similarities I can come up with looking at your list:



Buri, Xighei, Aoshi, diot, yizi... [one, two, three, four, five...]
From this list, Buri looks similar to Bir=One; Aoshi may be sounding similar to Üç=Three; Diot may be sounding similar to Dört=Four. And, if the pronounciation of X is indeed closer to SH (SHoe) or TCH (maTCH), then maybe Xighei sounds similar to İki=Two.

abasi ixla pit vuler [father finished work]
The only thing that looks similar to Turkish is "abasi" => Baba is Father and Babası would be His/Her Father. But the bad news is Baba is from Arabic; the original Turkish word for Father is Ata, which is today used to mean Ancestor. So unless there's some Arabic intervention, the Abasi I read here may not have any connection to the Turkish word.

Wait... Ixla ==> İş(ler) = Work ??? (read Ş as SH)

inji uyinne varmix [they went back home]
Varmix = Varmış ? Arrived or Have Arrived ?

garla vahurei? [where are you going]
No association for me.

mendala vahurei [i'm going over there]
Same as above.

axi susu vararao? [is there any noodle soup]
Axi ==> Aş = Meal ?
Vararao ==> may be sharing the same root with Var=There is

vara [there's soup available]
Yes yes, this must be the same as Var.

yaohuara [no soup avialable]
And this must have some link to Yok = There is not / There is none.
In some dialects the K at the end of Yok sounds more like an H.

Salar garqi mae bixilimese [I can't speak Salar language]
What does Mae mean - is it 'I'? Then it may have some link to Ben (=I) or Men ('I' in Azeri and maybe some other Turkic languages).
Bixilimese ==> could be far fetched, but it may be linked to Bilmek = To know. (In Turkish, you don't say, for example, 'I don't speak Salar', but you say 'I don't know Salar.' Is it the same concept in Salar?)


Off to Wikipedia now, let's find out more on Salar

[Edited at 2009-02-11 14:44 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Jason Ma  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 15:16
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Ozden Arikan and nanozturk Feb 11, 2009

Indeed, "X" is the pronounciation close to "sh" (as in shoe). Mae=men=I
I am not a linguist and this is the rough pronounciation I can come up with.

As I mentioned, these words and sentences are my distant memory of childhood.
From the notes you given, I found there's striking similarities. It's good to know.
How I wish I knew more about this language. But it's never too late to learn, particularly when it's the language of my maternal grandfather.

Thanks.

[Edited at 2009-02-11 15:57 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Sahin Beygu
Turkey
Local time: 10:16
English to Turkish
Salar is Turkic Feb 12, 2009

Salar is spoken by descendants of an Oghuz-Turkic-speaking subtribe.
A usefull resource is, although belonging a western-oriented orientalist approach, is the ethnologue site: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=slr


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Halil Ibrahim Tutuncuoglu "Бёcäטsع Լîfe's cômplicåtعd eñøugh"
Turkey
Local time: 10:16
Turkish to English
+ ...
how close these two languages are related, Feb 12, 2009

they are just the same language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salar_language :

Salar is a Turkic language spoken by the Salar people, who mainly live in the provinces of Qinghai and Gansu in China; some also live in Ghulja, Xinjiang. The Salar number about 90,000 people, of whom about 70,000 speak the Salar language; the remaining 20,000 speak Chinese. Amazingly, speakers of Salar and Turkish can generally understand each other to a large degree, even though one ethnic group lives in Central China and the other in Anatolia, thousands of miles away.Contemporary Salar is heavily influenced by contact with Tibetan and Chinese.


Direct link Reply with quote
 

chica nueva
Local time: 19:16
Chinese to English
Information sources Feb 12, 2009

Jason, I spotted your post here!

There is some info in English on Turkic languages here if you are interested:
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/28623
http://www.answers.com/topic/turkic?hl=turkic&hl=peoples

I am asking the Mod to consider opening a thread on Gansu's Yugurs, or on China's Turkic languages/peoples.

Lesley

[Edited at 2009-02-14 00:52 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 

chica nueva
Local time: 19:16
Chinese to English
New Thread in Linguistics Forum: Yugurs; Turkic language/peoples in China Feb 14, 2009

http://www.proz.com/forum/linguistics/127606-yugurs;_gansu;_turkic_language_peoples_in_china.html

Thank you, Selcuk Akyuz/Özden Arıkan.
Is it alright to post this link here and vice versa?

Lesley

[Edited at 2009-02-14 06:30 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 

qaramang
English
consonantal compare between Turkish ans Salar Feb 15, 2009

Turkish Gloss Salar Gloss Consonants
土耳其语 词义 撒拉语 词义 辅音

bağ 绷带,果园 bağ 带子,果园 b
baş 头,首领 baš 头,首领 b
kitap 书 kitap 经书 p
pişmek 被煮,成熟 piš 成熟 p
damar 血脉 damur 血脉,筋 d
dudak 唇 dodax 唇 d
batur 勇敢的,勇猛的 batur 胖子 t
tan 黎明 tang 黎明 t
girmek 进入 gir 进入 g
güvercin 鸽子 gurğinčix 鸽子 g
gam 忧愁 qem 忧愁 g,q
gıdıkla-mak 挠痒 qïčïxlï 挠痒 g,q
kül 灰烬 kül 灰烬 k
küçük 小型的,年小的 kiji 小 k
kış 冬天 qïš 冬天 k,q
kuş 鸟 kuš 鹰 k,q
fayda 利益 faydï 利益 f
küfür 无宗教信仰 kufur 无宗教信仰 f
var 有,具有 var 有,具有 v
vermek 给,赠送 ver 给,赠送 v
sarı 黄 sarï 黄 s
sen 你 sen 你 s
beş 五 beš 五 ş,š
taş 石头 daš 石头 ş,š
güz 春天 guz 秋天 z
yüz 百 yüz 百 z
yol 路 yol 路 y
yaka 衣领 yaxa 衣领 y
her 每,每个 her 每,每个 h
hem 也,又 ham 也 h
yağ 油 yağ 油 ğ
ağaç 树 ağïš 木料,树 ğ
can 生命 jan 生命 c,j
bacak 腿 injix 腿 c,j
çay 茶 ča 茶 ç,č
çıkıs 出现 čïx 生长,出现 ç,č
badem 杏仁,杏树 badïm 杏仁 m
mal 财产,货物 mal 牲畜,聘礼 m
on 十 on 十 n
ben 我 men 我 n
dal 树枝 dal 树 l
bilmek 知道,了解 bil 知道,了解 l
bir 一 bir/bïr 一 r
görmek 看见 gör 看见 r


Notes:
1.ç=č;ş=š; k=k,q;g=g,q; ı=ï;c=j.
2.Detailed infomation about Salar orthography, please click here:http://www.cnsalar.com/News_View.asp?NewsID=47


[Edited at 2009-02-15 07:09 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-02-15 07:19 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 

chica nueva
Local time: 19:16
Chinese to English
Other Turkic languages: Kazakh Feb 15, 2009

Just out of curiosity I don't suppose Kazakh and Turkish/Salar are mutually comprehensible? in either written or spoken form?

Lesley

[Edited at 2009-02-16 01:19 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Jason Ma  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 15:16
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for this nice contribution Feb 16, 2009

I believe this should be particularly interesting for the speakers of Turkish. For the convenience of non-Chinese readers, I quoted Garamang's reply and translated Chinese gloss into English:


qaramang wrote:

Turkish Gloss Salar Gloss Consonants
土耳其语 词义 撒拉语 词义 辅音

bağ bandage, orchard bağ ribbon, orchard b
baş head, chief baš head, chief b
kitap book kitap scripture p
pişmek be cooked,mature piš mature p
damar blood vessel damur blood vessel,tendon d
dudak lip dodax lip d
batur brave, viroucious batur fat person t
tan dawn tang dawn t
girmek enter gir enter g
güvercin pigeon gurğinčix pigeon g
gam worried qem worried g,q
gıdıkla-mak scratch and itch qïčïxlï scratch and itch g,q
kül ash kül ash k
küçük mini, young kiji small k
kış winter qïš winter k,q
kuş bird kuš eagle k,q
fayda benifits faydï benifits f
küfür atheist kufur atheist f
var have, with var have, with v
vermek give, send ver give, send v
sarı yellow sarï yellow s
sen you sen you s
beş five beš five ş,š
taş Stone daš stone ş,š
güz Spring guz Autumn z
yüz hundred yüz hundred z
yol road yol road y
yaka collar yaxa collar y
her each, every her each, every h
hem too, also ham also h
yağ oil yağ oil ğ
ağaç tree ağïš wood, tree ğ
can life jan life c,j
bacak leg injix leg c,j
çay tea ča tea ç,č
çıkıs appear čïx grow appear ç,č
badem apricot pink,apricot tree badïm apricot pink m
mal property, goods mal animal,betrathal gifts m
on ten on ten n
ben I men I n
dal twig dal twig l
bilmek know bil know l
bir one bir/bïr one r
görmek seen gör seen r


Notes:
1.ç=č;ş=š; k=k,q;g=g,q; ı=ï;c=j.
2.Detailed infomation about Salar orthography, please click here:
http://www.cnsalar.com/News_View.asp?NewsID=47



[Edited at 2009-02-16 01:51 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-02-16 05:01 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 

chica nueva
Local time: 19:16
Chinese to English
Thank you! Feb 16, 2009

qaramang

It's a very nice site.

Here's another site:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Salar



[Edited at 2009-02-17 19:19 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 
dolichos
Turkish to English
a couple more observations Apr 2, 2009

I agree with most of what Özden has written - there are a few more similarities that are a bit more "hidden" by the consonant and vowl shifts between different Turkic languages as well as a few things typical of E. Turkic languages that diverge from Oghuz Turkic languages (of which Anatolian Turkish is one).


Özden Arıkan wrote:

abasi ixla pit vuler [father finished work]
The only thing that looks similar to Turkish is "abasi" =>

Wait... Ixla ==> İş(ler) = Work ??? (read Ş as SH)


also "pit - bit=" (to finish)




inji uyinne varmix [they went back home]
Varmix = Varmış ? Arrived or Have Arrived ?


uy - Uzbek / Uyghur üy, cognate to Turkish "ev"



garla vahurei? [where are you going]
No association for me.
mendala vahurei [i'm going over there]
Same as above.


garla similar to qayer in qayerga of Uzbek (where-to) and har- of Azerbaijani.
vah - var= (Turkish varmak, to arrive and sometimes to go, Uzbek/Uyghur bor=)



Salar garqi mae bixilimese [I can't speak Salar language]
What does Mae mean - is it 'I'? Then it may have some link to Ben (=I) or Men ('I' in Azeri and maybe some other Turkic languages).
Bixilimese ==> could be far fetched, but it may be linked to Bilmek = To know. (In Turkish, you don't say, for example, 'I don't speak Salar', but you say 'I don't know Salar.' Is it the same concept in Salar?)


I would guess that the -mese is cognate to the -maz/mez suffix of Turkish.


Direct link Reply with quote
 
dolichos
Turkish to English
Not "the same" language! Apr 2, 2009


İbrahim Tutuncuoglu wrote:

they are just the same language



I'd have to disagree with this; there is an idea among some that Turkic = Turkish. Like the Romance languages, Turkic languages have split into various groups and come under heavy influence of surrounding languages. Salar is definitely Turkic but is no more "Turkish" than Spanish is Italian.


Direct link Reply with quote
 
dolichos
Turkish to English
Turkish/Salar and Kazakh Apr 2, 2009


lai an wrote:

Just out of curiosity I don't suppose Kazakh and Turkish/Salar are mutually comprehensible? in either written or spoken form?

Lesley

[Edited at 2009-02-16 01:19 GMT]


I can't speak for Salar but as for Kazakh, it not mutually comprehensible at first. I say "at first" because what seems to be unrelated often falls into patterns and the ear gets used to them. Of course there are more differences - different verb forms, different meanings attached to common words.

Kazakh shares much with Uzbek, like the dative in ga/ge, but it also has more assimilation of consonants. Example

Turkish genitive:
-(n)ın -(n)in -(n)un -(n)ün, with the "n" being there for euphony after a vowel.

Uzbek genitive:
-ning, no changes. (This said, Standard Uzbek has no vowel harmony but many dialects do display it).

Kazakh genitive:
-nıng -ning -dıng -ding -tıng -ting

Some of the consonant shifts between Turkish and Uzbek, for example, are not quite so difficult to get accustomed to - g > k, d > t (gel/kel, dil/til). Some of these are true for Kazakh as well, but in addition, Turkish y tends toward "j" (turkish c) in Kazakh - as it does in Carribean Spanish yo/jo. S tends toward sh (ş). So instead of the familiar if eastern sounding yakhshi/yahşi/yaxşi, you get "jaxsi" (cahsı) in Kazakh, the Turkish root "ye-" (eat) is "je" (ce). Yiyorum/Jeymın (Ceymın) - I eat. It's a bigger leap.

There are big differences in how they treat the inferential forms (Turkish -mış form), with many shades of meaning - did you see the act, did you see the result but not the act, were you told by someone else, did you see the result and verify it?

So in the last analysis - A Turkish person and a Kazakh person, with some work, can get basic ideas across, but little of the subtleties of either language.


Direct link Reply with quote
 
Pages in topic:   [1 2] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:

Moderator(s) of this forum
Murad AWAD[Call to this topic]
Özgür Salman[Call to this topic]

You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

How closely they are related: Turkish and Salar language?







PerfectIt consistency checker
Faster Checking, Greater Accuracy

PerfectIt helps deliver error-free documents. It improves consistency, ensures quality and helps to enforce style guides. It’s a powerful tool for pro users, and comes with the assurance of a 30-day money back guarantee.

More info »
memoQ translator pro 2013
ProZ.com members receive a 20% discount on memoQ

memoQ is a tool from translators to translators: no matter whether your clients give you files in the original file formats or supply you with project packages in other translation tools, you can use memoQ to guarantee timely delivery, high productivity a

More info »