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May 18, 2012 21:02
12 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

victoire flouée

French to English Art/Literary History war memoirs
The term is the title of the final section of the war memoirs (World War II) of a French Jew. It is 1945. The man in question spent the war, first as a minor resistance fighter, then joined a Moroccan armoured division and took part in the Italian campaign. Meanwhile his future wife was arrested, imprisoned, narrowly escaped deportation, joined a maquis. Members of both their families were deported and died. After the war, the writer and his new wife are embittered and disappointed that properties and possessions had been seized, and felt that the French authorities gave them little, if any, help in trying to build a new life, and taking little account their war efforts for France. Hence his title for this section; but of course they are the ones who are 'floués' not the victory.... I have no inspiration with "swindle" etc., though I do have one or two ideas floating around... but would be grateful for more input!
Proposed translations (English)
3 +3 hollow victory
4 +2 Winners but losers
5 deceiving victory
4 +1 Pyrrhic victory
4 +1 victory cheated
3 +2 Bitter victory
3 +2 victims of victory, victory's victims
4 forsaken in the fight for freedom
4 defeated in victory
3 victory foiled
3 A Spurious Victory

Discussion

katsy (asker) May 19, 2012:
an intermediate thank you! thank you all for your suggestions! I have not made up my mind at all - in fact it's going to be difficult! you are taking me in directions which hadn't always occurred to me, but that was the point of asking! The only thing I had thought of - and I'd be grateful for feedback on that - was "A phoney victory" - a nod to 'the phoney war', but I'm not sure if the recipients (American, distant family) might find that too flippant.... At present I think I will probably go with one of your suggestions.
ANNIE BATTEN May 18, 2012:
From this man's perspective he and his family lost a great deal but it was because of what the enemy did to the Jewish community and a lack of help from the French government after the war, not because of the actual war effort. Pyrrhic victory I think suggests that it is the conflict itself which is too costly in human/financial terms etc. Whereas here the man and his family would have lost everything anyway, whatever part he played in the resistance, because he was Jewish. So I think hollow victory expresses better the idea that he fought long and hard only to be disappointed in the end. I may be splitting hairs here though!
Carol Gullidge May 18, 2012:
perhaps I'll post this as an answer, but no doubt others, more suitable, will follow
katsy (asker) May 18, 2012:
@ Carol Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking.... (I'd already written so much, forgot to say that if doesn't need to be literal) though , as your idea 'hollow victory' suggests (I like it!) I think victory has got to be there somewhere.... it's heartbreaking really - he was so determined and proud to fight for France.... (and eventually emigrated to the US)
Carol Gullidge May 18, 2012:
a hollow victory springs to mind not strictly speaking the same meaning, I know, but victory was pretty hollow/meaningless for the couple concerned. Btw, you may just find - especially as this is for a heading/title - that you need something that isn't necessarily a direct translation of the source title - something that makes more sense to the target audience in the context

Proposed translations

+3
1 hr
Selected

hollow victory

... a victory that hardly seemed worth the effort...

As I mentioned in the Discussion box, this isn't a literal translation, but, in the circumstances and context, it might work well as a heading; literal translations rarely work for titles/headings, in any case. I'm still not sure that Pyrrhic victory doesn't work, although I initially thought of that, and discarded it! But it's getting late after a hard day, and maybe I was wrong!
Peer comment(s):
agree JaneD : I think this is good - it expresses perfectly the fact that the victory was an empty one.
7 hrs
many thanks Jane!
agree Wolf Draeger
13 hrs
many thanks Wolf!
agree Daniel Evans : This suggestion seems most fitting to me.
1 day 11 hrs
many thanks Evansdw :)
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "thank you Carol - a hard decision, because lots of ideas... but sometimes simple is best..."
18 mins

victory foiled

Foiled, in part, for the alliterative quality (v/f), and to keep close to the French visually.
Note from asker:
thank you Yolanda!
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28 mins

deceiving victory

better than using swindled!!
"deceiving" used next to "victory" create a beautiful paradox, ithink it serves the general meaning of what you explained:)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 35 mins (2012-05-18 21:38:03 GMT)
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swindled= deceiving
Note from asker:
thank you perledelune !
Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : You mean deceptive.
1 hr
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+1
37 mins

Pyrrhic victory

The classic term for a hollow victory. What is described as this person's experience is the epitome of this expression.
Note from asker:
thank you emiledgar - the discussion around this term, which I'd thought of, helped me decide
Peer comment(s):
neutral ANNIE BATTEN : On second thoughts hollow victory would be better! Pyrrhic victory suggests that they lost a lot as a result of their struggle/resistance but in this case their losses were due to the war itself and the fact that the French government gave them no help!
3 mins
But they fought and at the end of the war they have less than they had before - a hollow victory.
neutral Carol Gullidge : a Pyrrhic victory isn't the same as a hollow victory, but one where both sides wear each other into the ground - a war of attrition. It might still work here though...?
4 mins
pyrrhic victory: "a victory won at such a great cost that it is tantamount to a defeat" - isn't this what this man has experienced?
agree philgoddard : Both Pyrrhic and hollow are perfect.
1 hr
Thank you.
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : A pyrrhic victory gives an accurate description of the information given in the post. However it does not render the idea of having been cheated. It might none the less be an excellent solution. What else? I'm working on it!
11 hrs
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+1
1 hr

victory cheated

-
Note from asker:
thank you Salih
Peer comment(s):
agree Yolanda Broad
3 hrs
Thanks Mrs.Yolanda.
Something went wrong...
+2
10 hrs

Bitter victory

just another idea
Peer comment(s):
agree ANNIE BATTEN : Another good option!
3 hrs
thanks Annie
agree Letredenoblesse
8 hrs
Thank you Agnes
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+2
12 hrs

victims of victory, victory's victims

A tentative suggestion as quite some way from the French visually and phonologically. However, my idea is to convey a meaning close to "flouer". I looked for synonyms : tromper, duper... and considered that there are victims in all cases. The poetic licence bit comes in with the use of "vi..." and "vi..." which might have a useful ring to it for a title. I realize that I shift the focus more expressly onto the victims but believe that this may be quite permissible, or even pertinent, given the people oriented subject.
Note from asker:
Thank you Nikki - I liked this one too
Peer comment(s):
agree kashew
23 mins
agree Yolanda Broad : victory's victims
2 hrs
neutral Laurette Tassin : it seems to me that this would apply to those who fraternized with the ennemy for instance, this family was a victim of the war however victory brought them little comfort
3 hrs
Which is precisely what I am seeking to convey in describing them as victims of victory (on the winning side yet still victims), the contradictary nature of what happened.
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+2
12 hrs

Winners but losers

*

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Note added at 12 heures (2012-05-19 09:59:05 GMT)
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Or; something like "Victorious losers", maybe inverted?
Note from asker:
thank you kashew
Peer comment(s):
agree Yolanda Broad : I think you're on the right track. Losing winners? The winners who lost?
3 hrs
Thanks
agree Salih YILDIRIM : Very logic in consideration of above - given contex.
6 hrs
Thanks
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15 hrs

A Spurious Victory

An alternative to "hollow" and "bitter" victory (which are good options in their own right).

Thought it might convey a sense of the fraudulent or illegitimate nature of the Allied (French) victory in the author's view.
Note from asker:
thank you Wolf
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18 hrs

forsaken in the fight for freedom

-
Note from asker:
thank you Catherine - I think 'feeling of being forsaken' may well turn up in the body of this section - sorry I can't share points!
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18 hrs

defeated in victory

-
Note from asker:
thanks again!
Something went wrong...
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