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to bring a bust
hortus sanitatis
Feb 19, 2005 18:18
19 yrs ago
English term

Help with the Past Perfect please

English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature children's literature
“Seize ‘em!” ordered Glavo, but at that very moment the gnomes vanished. Death Bringer was the only one to see where they had disappeared to. The Door on the top of the rock had opened and closed again, and everything was now plunged in darkness.


Dear native English speakers!
Please advise if I need any Perfect tense here. The thread of events is kind of retrospective, that's why I think I should use Past Perfect.

Here are the events as they actually happened, one after another:
Event 1: the Door openes
Event 2: the gnomes vanish using the Door
Event 3: the door closes
Death Bringer happens to see all three events.

Please advise where it's better to use Past Perfect, and where Simple Past, for I'm a bit confused here.

Thank you!

P.S. This is my translation from English.
Responses
4 +10 Your version is fine, and the "had disappeared to" is just right!
4 +4 NFG: Further comments.
3 -2 Simple Past
4 -3 see comment

Discussion

Kirill Semenov Feb 19, 2005:
After reading Richard's explanantions, I still cannot see why on earth you cannot use Simple Past in this case. In particular, I cannot see why the context above needs Past Perfect. Are there some important events preceding these which should be marked?
David Knowles Feb 19, 2005:
No I don't think you can use simple past. That's because it's a historic narrative, and everything is in the past. Your narrative is not chronological: there's a statement that they vanish, DE saw it, and then there's an explanation.
Non-ProZ.com Feb 19, 2005:
And - this is my translation from RUSSIAN, of course, not from English. Must have been very sleepy or something, I s'pose...
Non-ProZ.com Feb 19, 2005:
Is it quite comprehensible to use just Simple Past here? Which goes after which, I mean.

Responses

+10
10 mins
Selected

Your version is fine, and the "had disappeared to" is just right!

The only thing I'd change would be "on top of the rock", omitting the first of your definite articles.
Peer comment(s):
agree SirReaL : yup!
6 mins
agree Nik-On/Off : David, could you explain why the first definite article is not needed?
35 mins
"on top of" is a fixed phrase, like the obsolescent "atop". "on the top of" is a description. A subtle difference!
agree Richard Benham : I would rather say "the door at the top of the rock"; "on top of the rock" suggests that someone has just plunked an old door onto the rock--not that there's actually a functional door there.//Caught! I didn't think my 2 weeks in the US would show!
36 mins
Strange, but I don't read it this way at all, and "at the top of" sounds awkward. Is this a US/UK difference?
agree Jack Doughty
52 mins
agree cmwilliams (X)
54 mins
agree James Vail : Simple past for "was now in darkness." Past perfect is best for everything that had happened before the final event (everything being plunged into darkness).
2 hrs
agree Refugio : at the top of the rock // had opened ... yes, past perfect is needed
3 hrs
agree mstkwasa
5 hrs
agree paolamonaco
8 hrs
agree Johan Venter : I spent many hours explaining the dreaded PP to my students back when I was still an ESL teacher and I would've been proud if one of my students had come up with the sentence used here by Andrew. I would only change the preposition to at, as Richard said.
13 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Lots of thanks for your help, David! And thanks to everyone!"
-2
7 mins

Simple Past

A lot of events, just put it in the simple past:

Death Bringer was the only one to see where they disappeared to. The Door on the top of the rock opened and closed again, and everything was now plunged in darkness.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Richard Benham : No. This completely obscures the sequence of events.//I only disagreed with the simple past. The other answer I disagreed with was about prepositional use. Feel free to comment on my answer.
40 mins
Thank you very much ;-)
disagree Refugio : the past perfect is necessary
3 hrs
I think I was confused by "at that moment". So I thought everything was happening at the same time. Now I see that it's "at that very moment" :)
Something went wrong...
-3
12 mins

see comment

Dear Andrew, my husband, who is a native English speaker, looked at the sentence and thought that the following sentence did not sound right: "Death Bringer was the only one to see where they had disappeared to." It would be better to say "where they went" (Simple past". But definitely not "where they had disappeared to". The use of this verb with the preposition "to" doesn't sound correct in English.
Peer comment(s):
neutral SirReaL : you are talking about the hanging preposition - that's fine, but why leave out the "disappearing" part?
4 mins
disagree Richard Benham : "Where they had disappeared to" is fine--the "rule" against ending sentences with a preposition is merely a superstition.
32 mins
disagree Refugio : Sounds correct to me
3 hrs
disagree tappi_k : Andrew's sentence is fine as it is.
1 day 9 hrs
Something went wrong...
+4
1 hr

NFG: Further comments.

You aksed for an explanation of where to use the simple past tense and where to use past perfect (or pluperfect, as I usually call it).

So this is my explanation. You use the simple past tense for chronologically linear narration of past events. If you want to situate an event outside this linear sequence, further back in the past, you use the pluperfect. Your sequence of tenses is perfectly (even pluperfectly) correct. There is no need to change it.

Another example: "I opened the door, went in, and looked around. Searching the study, I noticed that someone had been there before me."

Amother, rarer, use of the pluperfect is to denote an activity which is finished rapidly, or, more accurately, the result or outcome of this activity. For example: "With the help of our new friends, we had soon erected the tent." In this case, the coming-to-be of the state of affairs "we have erected the tent" is so rapid that it is treated as a single event in the narrative. (In literary French, the Past Anterior would be used. I don't know if that helps. ;-) )

About "the door on the top of the rock": you just *can't* say "the door on top of the rock". That would suggest a door just sitting there (say for example if someone who had an old door he didn't want dumped it there). You could say "at the top of the rock". I can't think of anything better at the moment. Your idea, although awkward, is still better than "on top of the rock".

Don't worry about "disappeared to". It is slightly colloquial, but perfectly grammatical and idiomatic.

Good luck!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 18 mins (2005-02-19 20:36:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

On the question of \"on top of\": I still think it\'s no good. Even \"in the top of\" is better.
Peer comment(s):
agree Refugio
2 hrs
agree mstkwasa : However I am not so sure about "in the top of the rock".
4 hrs
I don't like it much either--I was only saying that, clumsy as it is, it's still better than "on top of the rock".
agree Marcus Malabad : since this is magical, there's nothing wrong with a "door on top of a rock", is there Richard?
15 hrs
There's nothing wrong with a door's being there, but "on top of" suggests (to me) a door just sitting there, rather than an opening with a functional door. Others seem not to see it that way, but....
agree tappi_k : and I agree with your reading of "on top of" as well. If it were for any other object in general, "on top of" would have been fine, but for a working door it does sound a little awkward to me, too.
1 day 8 hrs
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