| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Reasonability of wages for UK-based in-house translators Thread poster: Mark Smith
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Mary Lalevee 
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:14
French to English
| Education not useless | Feb 16, 2006 |
Hold your horses there Mark!
No one is saying your education is useless - far from it, but that that alone is not enough. You have already achieved a lot, now you have to plunge into the world of work and gain the experience which is the other thing you need.
Being a successful translator requires a combination of things. If you ask people on here or translators you know how they got into translation you will hear a host of completely different stories. In other words, ... See more Hold your horses there Mark!
No one is saying your education is useless - far from it, but that that alone is not enough. You have already achieved a lot, now you have to plunge into the world of work and gain the experience which is the other thing you need.
Being a successful translator requires a combination of things. If you ask people on here or translators you know how they got into translation you will hear a host of completely different stories. In other words, it is not simply train as a translator and there you are.
The thing is, you generally need to have a specialisation when you translate, you need to know a lot about a particular business. That is what you do not yet have, but you can learn that and I am sure you will, as you seem to have another essential characteristic - motivation!
Good luck! ▲ Collapse
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 19:14
German to English
| Beware of the PM trap | Feb 16, 2006 |
Mark,
I'd be very careful about working as a PM, even as a stop-gap solution. My experience is that people who actually want to be translators make bad project managers. It stands to reason: the mindsets and skillsets required are quite different. PMs have to be able to juggle very many balls in the air simultaneously without dropping any of them. They also have to be particularly stress-resistant and outstanding oral communicators. Not many dyed-in-the-wool translators bring those ... See more Mark,
I'd be very careful about working as a PM, even as a stop-gap solution. My experience is that people who actually want to be translators make bad project managers. It stands to reason: the mindsets and skillsets required are quite different. PMs have to be able to juggle very many balls in the air simultaneously without dropping any of them. They also have to be particularly stress-resistant and outstanding oral communicators. Not many dyed-in-the-wool translators bring those skills with them.
Your education hasn't been useless, but it has to be seen in perspective. A 1-year MA doesn't stand comparison with, say, the long, tough course run by Daniel Gouadec at U. de Rennes II, or with the intensive, highly competitive 2-year MA offered by Monterey (MIIS, California). It really is an introductory course, no more than that. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much else on offer in the UK at the moment.
If you want to move to France, why not do just that? Translation position offerings in France appear regularly in various online sources (though rarely in ProZ, I think). And yes, the entry-level pay is not likely to be sparkling, although I think you must surely have known that before you joined the club, as it were. But not all entry-level positions pay a pittance, either.
I would seriously advise against freelancing now. The chances that you'll still be translating in 2 years' time are very slim indeed. If you really find it impossible to get a job as a translator, consider working in an area like export sales and marketing for a few years. You'll gain much valuable experience and industry knowledge that you can later put to good use as a translator, plus a serious competitive edge in the translation business.
Mark Smith wrote:
Nonetheless, I will not accept the fairness of such a valuation from the industry. Few people start a new career with all the knowledge they require in their head, and yet I see no parity of pay with a significant majority of graduate positions.
There are few careers where the learning curve is so long and steep, and that's also reflected in the pay scales. I don't know of any other career profile where a new entrant can make mistake after mistake for up to a year and still not get the sack. Having worked in industry and the retail business (non-translation positions), I can assure you that other sectors of the economy are not as tolerant of cock-ups ("three strikes and you're out"). And in jobs like law, accounting or consulting, the pay may be better, but the risks are also much higher - these jobs are frequently governed by an "up or out" principle that sees many new entrants booted out within the first three years or so, never to return.
The first three to four years of your professional life as a translator are also your apprenticeship, and I'm afraid that in many, possibly most cases, the "valuation from the industry" is a fair value, irrespective of how painful that may be.
But if you're really a star - you'll walk into a job, believe me.
Robin ▲ Collapse
| | | | Fred Neild (X)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| One day at a time | Feb 16, 2006 |
Hi Mark,
First of all read carefully Robin's comments, because they are extremely valuable. Then, forget about them and start building your own career, one day at a time.
Mark Smith wrote:
Perhaps in such a case it would just be best to forget the working in-house step altogether.
If you get upset so easily you should reconsider becoming a freelancer. E-v-e-r-y-d-a-y is extremely hard and if you don't turn on your computer there is no money coming in.
Mark Smith wrote:
confirmation on the woeful state of remuneration in our industry.
I beg to differ. Of course, you didn't become a translator because you wanted to get rich, right? But I can assure you that you can do pretty well if you have what it takes. We also have architects driving taxi cabs, right?
Mark Smith wrote:
Most have simply chosen to tell me how useless my education is and left it at that.
This is up to you. You will be the only one who can judge this through time.
Mark Smith wrote:
Few people start a new career with all the knowledge they require in their head,
Actually, I believe nobody does and this is why there is an entry-level salary for all jobs.
Just take one day at a time.
Good luck,
Fred
| | | | Mark Smith
United States
Local time: 20:14
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Reply to Fred | Feb 16, 2006 |
Fred Neild wrote:
If you get upset so easily you should reconsider becoming a freelancer.
Fred, you misunderstand me. When I said perhaps it would be best to forget the working in-house, I meant if I went down the route of a project management job first, as this would not count for anything in terms of translation experience, so I would still be at square one. I wasn't being upset, it was a reflection.
Fred Neild wrote:
You didn't become a translator because you wanted to get rich, right?
Did I ever say anything about getting rich? In anyone's language a starter salary of below £20k for a UK graduate is low, though I fully understand that this is how things are in translation.
Thanks for your input,
Mark
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Angela Arnone
Local time: 02:14
Member (2004)
Italian to English
+ ...
| Just like mothers? | Feb 16, 2006 |
I agree that "people who actually want to be translators make bad project managers" but not really because of different skills required ... simply because of the frustration of not doing what you really want to do.
But I tend to disagree about the other observation ... I think it depends on your character.
I have no lack of examples of self-employed translators, like myself, who also run a home and family so we are juggling many many balls, are stress-resistant and we are able... See more I agree that "people who actually want to be translators make bad project managers" but not really because of different skills required ... simply because of the frustration of not doing what you really want to do.
But I tend to disagree about the other observation ... I think it depends on your character.
I have no lack of examples of self-employed translators, like myself, who also run a home and family so we are juggling many many balls, are stress-resistant and we are able to communicate orally (albeit at loud decibels quite often).
Cheers
Angela
RobinB wrote:
....
PMs have to be able to juggle very many balls in the air simultaneously without dropping any of them. They also have to be particularly stress-resistant and outstanding oral communicators. Not many dyed-in-the-wool translators bring those skills with them.
....
Robin ▲ Collapse
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 19:14
German to English
| Work/life balance | Feb 16, 2006 |
Angela Arnone wrote:I have no lack of examples of self-employed translators, like myself, who also run a home and family so we are juggling many many balls, are stress-resistant and we are able to communicate orally (albeit at loud decibels quite often).
Won't argue with that for a second, Angela. But a PM has to juggle all the balls at work *and* at home. Not easy, and a lot of people buckle under the strain. The oral communication thing demands a lot of diplomacy as well (and I don't mean the Don Rumsfeld school of diplomacy!), where loud decibels are normally counter-productive. Our two best ever PMs were a translation graduate who didn't actually want to translate, and a business studies graduate who had three languages at native level, plus English (and a couple of others).
Robin
| | | | Angela Arnone
Local time: 02:14
Member (2004)
Italian to English
+ ...
| Being devil's advocate, Robin! | Feb 16, 2006 |
Project management is a very specific job and I wouldn't ever do it (probably because I do my own multitasking here in my home office!). I know of several "linguists" who have been derailed into it, in translation agencies, and have left under heavy cloud. Because they wanted to translate, and all they did was re-read other people's work (if they were lucky) and juggle (as you say) idiotic clients and stressed-out translators.
Moreover, once you leave that job, you CAN'T take the customers... See more Project management is a very specific job and I wouldn't ever do it (probably because I do my own multitasking here in my home office!). I know of several "linguists" who have been derailed into it, in translation agencies, and have left under heavy cloud. Because they wanted to translate, and all they did was re-read other people's work (if they were lucky) and juggle (as you say) idiotic clients and stressed-out translators.
Moreover, once you leave that job, you CAN'T take the customers with you, right?
So if Mark is dead keen to be a translator I can't see PM-ing as a good option unless he is starving to death or unless he finds an agency who will let him do both.
Angela
RobinB wrote:
Won't argue with that for a second, Angela. But a PM has to juggle all the balls at work *and* at home. Not easy, and a lot of people buckle under the strain. The oral communication thing demands a lot of diplomacy as well (and I don't mean the Don Rumsfeld school of diplomacy!), where loud decibels are normally counter-productive. Our two best ever PMs were a translation graduate who didn't actually want to translate, and a business studies graduate who had three languages at native level, plus English (and a couple of others).
Robin
[Edited at 2006-02-16 13:55] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Decent inhouse salaries do exist | Feb 16, 2006 |
Hi Mark,
I thought i had posted a reply, but apparently no!
I would encourage you to go to France and seek an in-house position there.
If you like send me a private message, I can give you some tips on companies that offer very decent inhouse salaries. It's not impossible!
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Imad Almaghary (X)
Local time: 03:14
English to Arabic
+ ...
| The best way to achieve your wanted outcomes | Feb 16, 2006 |
Good morning
Follow the following steps to achieve your wanted outcomes: -
1. Formulate strong alliance
2. Write viral ebook
3.Create web site-based affiliate programme
Yours
Mr. Imad
| | | | Mark Smith
United States
Local time: 20:14
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Sorry, but I have to ask the question -WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? | Feb 17, 2006 |
What do you mean by point 1? Why do I want anything to do with viruses in point 2, and what do you mean by point 3?
I'm flumoxed. Have you posted in the wrong place?
Mark
| | | | | RE: What on earth are you talking about... | Feb 17, 2006 |
Hi Mark,
I could be wrong, but I believe this to be a rather clever reference to our friend Mr Alex Eames... a terribly clever man, who I'm sure has made a lot of money... but we digress....
All the best,
K
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| One more juggler for the circus | Feb 17, 2006 |
I tried to post this yesterday. Let's see if it sticks this time.
Hmm, can freelance translator mums or project manager mums keep more flaming clubs in the air? This is one debate I have to get in on...
Seriously though, I'm in the same boat as Mark, having just finished a translation degree and needing a job. I have no objection to a few years of apprenticeship. I am aware of the quality of my skills, which is why I want a job in France - so I can improve them. I do ha... See more I tried to post this yesterday. Let's see if it sticks this time.
Hmm, can freelance translator mums or project manager mums keep more flaming clubs in the air? This is one debate I have to get in on...
Seriously though, I'm in the same boat as Mark, having just finished a translation degree and needing a job. I have no objection to a few years of apprenticeship. I am aware of the quality of my skills, which is why I want a job in France - so I can improve them. I do have a functional area, a degree in economics and office experience. I'm one of those crazy people who gets excited by making accounts balance. So I'm sure I would be able to find a job with those skills outside the translation industry for better pay.
From the general concensus of this discussion, I see two paths open to me: One is to take such a job for a few years, become an expert and then go directly into freelance. The problems I can see here are that it still leaves me without translation experience and no better at that art form than I am now. Also, the only competitive advantage I would have to offer a French employer is mother-tongue English, which is less useful outside of the translation industry. So that would mean little chance of working in France. My language skills are good - as a graduate - but there is definitely much room for improvement. So I'd have a secure specialization having taken this road, but not much else.
The other option is to take a trainee translator position for an appalling salary for a few years and then go freelance, having industry contacts and experience under my belt. The question here is whether or not my Econ decree and office experience to this point would be enough to call myself a specialist.
What would you advise and how should I handle the problems posed by either option? I'm really tempted by PM jobs simply because they are easier to find and pay better, but this would only serve to delay my real career goals. I want to be a club-juggling freelance translator mum in a few years myself. It seems a much more varied job, with running the business and producing the product, instead of focusing on just one or the other, and this type of thing is ultimately what appeals most to me. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Angela Arnone
Local time: 02:14
Member (2004)
Italian to English
+ ...
| I'd like to apologise to all of you whose posts were lost yesterday | Feb 17, 2006 |
There is site maintenance under way, to offer new features, and ... well you know how it is ... fix one thing and break another. Please be patient and cross fingers.
Angela
[mum, wife, translator, moderator, interpreter, chief cook and bottlewasher, and how come I don't have time to go to the gym?]
Karen Cloutier wrote:
I tried to post this yesterday. Let's see if it sticks this time.
| | | | sylvie malich (X)
Germany
Local time: 02:14
German to English
| [Aside to Angela] | Feb 17, 2006 |
Angela Arnone wrote:
how come I don't have time to go to the gym?]
[/quote]
I hear ya Angela, loud and clear. I complained about this recently to a "single-translator-no-kids" and just about screamed when she tried to explain to me that it's all in the organization...
>scream!
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