Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
à titre onéreux ou gracieux
English translation:
with or without charge
Added to glossary by
ketter
Mar 16, 2006 11:49
18 yrs ago
55 viewers *
French term
à titre onéreux ou gracieux
French to English
Bus/Financial
Law: Contract(s)
supplier contract
Le Contrat ne pourra en aucun cas être cédé ou transféré par le Prestataire, même en partie, **à titre onéreux ou gracieux**, sans l'accord écrit et préalable du Client.
I know what it means, but it keeps on coming back and I can't seem to find a coherent way of putting it. Is there a specific translation for this in english??
TIA
I know what it means, but it keeps on coming back and I can't seem to find a coherent way of putting it. Is there a specific translation for this in english??
TIA
Proposed translations
(English)
5 +1 | with or without charge |
ketter
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4 +3 | for or without valuable consideration |
Marian Greenfield
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5 +1 | by onerous or gratuitous title |
tinawizzy (X)
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5 | for consideration or free of charge |
Karen Marston
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5 | Notes |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
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5 | whether value is given in exchange or not |
Rafael Wugalter (X)
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4 | see comment - French legal definitions |
Helene_J
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3 -1 | by onerous or lucrative title |
Romanian Translator (X)
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Proposed translations
+1
4 hrs
Selected
with or without charge
Keep it simple. I had this phrase when studying translation at Monterey.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Rafael Wugalter (X)
: The intent behind this is laudable, but the word "charge" has a specific meaning in civil law, so the suggestion just a bit risky. A charge in civil law (and this document is probably governed by that law) also means a security such as a hypothec.
1 hr
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May be, but I think it would be clear by the context. Plus, "with or without charge" is so common in contracts, I think an argument about the phrase is academic or at least nitpicky.
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agree |
QTtranslator (X)
: This is easy to understand and clear. I disagree with Rafael about the word charge. I think you have to go with common usage.
1 hr
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neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: Similar doubts as Rafael about charge, potential for confusion with charge in the sense of "legal charge", mortgage etc. But in context, altho 'probably understandable, does not read naturally in my view. Play safe : "free of charge" / "for payment"
4 days
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I think context is all important, and the phrase will be understood in context.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "With such a debate it was difficult to choose, but this was clear and understandable in context. Thanks."
+3
5 mins
for or without valuable consideration
or
for valuable consideration or for free, but I think above fits better...
for valuable consideration or for free, but I think above fits better...
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Sandra Petch
: "for valuable consideration or free of charge" is what I was about to suggest / I think your "for or without" is perfectly fine!
1 min
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thanks... like "free of charge" better than "for free" i too like for or without... but if Muriel goes w/free.. I like "free of charge"... Best, msg
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agree |
cmwilliams (X)
30 mins
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thanks
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disagree |
Rafael Wugalter (X)
: People will understand this, but the notion of "consideration" is a common law concept, totally foreign to civil law systems.
54 mins
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hmmmm.... I believe this is the most obvious and useful translation, and certainly less awkward than your suggestion, but we'll see what the asker thinks....
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agree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: Of course. Basic contract law. No contract valid - unless made under deed - without valuable consideration.
2 hrs
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Thanks Nikki!!! and that from the other side of the pond!!
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agree |
BAmary (X)
: When you translate into English you do it so people who speak English can understand it, and they usually live in Common Law countries, so it doesn't matter if it's a foreign concept to Civil Law countries...
9 hrs
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-1
6 mins
by onerous or lucrative title
The Practicing Notary, Baton Rouge Notary Public Baton Rouge ...As to both movables and immovables, a transfer by onerous title must be made in writing and a transfer by gratuitous title must be made by authentic act. ...
www.la-notary.com/civil/civil3_6.html - 43k
Bill 202 An Act respecting Hillcrest Protestant Cemetery of Deux ...
Whereas the transfer by onerous title of the vacant land described in the ...
the land described in the schedule by onerous title to a person who is not an ...
www2.publicationsduquebec.gouv.qc.ca/dynamicSearch/ telecharge.php?type=5&file=2003C202A.PDF
lucrative title
Title Insurance — A title to real estate that has been acquired with nothing given in exchange for it.
Compare: onerous title
See: real estate, title
http://insource.nils.com/gloss/GlossaryTerm.asp?tid=3626
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Note added at 7 mins (2006-03-16 11:57:18 GMT)
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lucrative title Definitionlucrative title - definition of lucrative title - Title obtained as a gift or at a price significantly below the market price.
www.investorwords.com/2905/lucrative_title.html - 19k - 14 Mar 2006 -
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Note added at 8 mins (2006-03-16 11:58:30 GMT)
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French Civil Code: Book III: Of Acquiring Property, Title XX
Of The Different Modes Of Acquiring Property. TITLE XX. OF PRESCRIPTION. ...
whether by universal or particular title, or by lucrative or chargeable title. ...
www.napoleon-series.org/research/ government/code/book3/c_title20.html
www.la-notary.com/civil/civil3_6.html - 43k
Bill 202 An Act respecting Hillcrest Protestant Cemetery of Deux ...
Whereas the transfer by onerous title of the vacant land described in the ...
the land described in the schedule by onerous title to a person who is not an ...
www2.publicationsduquebec.gouv.qc.ca/dynamicSearch/ telecharge.php?type=5&file=2003C202A.PDF
lucrative title
Title Insurance — A title to real estate that has been acquired with nothing given in exchange for it.
Compare: onerous title
See: real estate, title
http://insource.nils.com/gloss/GlossaryTerm.asp?tid=3626
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 mins (2006-03-16 11:57:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
lucrative title Definitionlucrative title - definition of lucrative title - Title obtained as a gift or at a price significantly below the market price.
www.investorwords.com/2905/lucrative_title.html - 19k - 14 Mar 2006 -
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 mins (2006-03-16 11:58:30 GMT)
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French Civil Code: Book III: Of Acquiring Property, Title XX
Of The Different Modes Of Acquiring Property. TITLE XX. OF PRESCRIPTION. ...
whether by universal or particular title, or by lucrative or chargeable title. ...
www.napoleon-series.org/research/ government/code/book3/c_title20.html
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Rafael Wugalter (X)
: This is absolutely correct in civil law, but only civil lawyers will understand it. Thus, it is better to say "whether or not value is given in exchge". If you opt for a term client wnt understd, u shd do a note to client. I hve civ/cmn law degrees, BTW.
51 mins
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well we aim for 'speciality vocabulary' in all translation, don't we?
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disagree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: In civil law perhaps, the current context is civil law too of coruse. But the examples cited above refer to title in the sense of ownership of property / real estate or otherwise, whereas this is contract for the provision of services I think.
2 hrs
|
disagree |
df49f (X)
: agree with Nikki: the examples cited above are either about "title/deed" and French phrase "à titre..." is absolutely NOT about a title/deed, or (not great) translations from French
6 hrs
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26 mins
for consideration or free of charge
another way of putting it
Peer comment(s):
agree |
cmwilliams (X)
10 mins
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disagree |
Rafael Wugalter (X)
: Technically incorrect because "consideration", in the sense of value in exchange, is a concept unknown to true civil law systems. It is preferable to write something like "whether or not value is given in exchange". Avoid "charge" : spec. mng. in civ law.
38 mins
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+1
28 mins
by onerous or gratuitous title
The phrase means that the contract cannot be ceded or assigned to third parties either under:
'onerous title': for example, a sale where there is a price or other consideration to be paid)
'gratuitous title': for example, a donation where no price is paid.
These are the proper legal terms which are usually found in the Laws.
'onerous title': for example, a sale where there is a price or other consideration to be paid)
'gratuitous title': for example, a donation where no price is paid.
These are the proper legal terms which are usually found in the Laws.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Rafael Wugalter (X)
: Sure, but if you want to make sure the reader actually understands, you have to provide a translator's note. This would be gibberish to most people in common law systems.
55 mins
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I agree with putting a translators note! but I still think that the proper legal terminology should be retained in the translation
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agree |
Abdellatif Bouhid
1 hr
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Thanks
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3 hrs
Notes
Quick note on consideration, a basic doctrine of English law.
Note two basic legal systems, Roamn and common law. France essentially Roman law, England essentially common law. NB that Scotland has a system of Roman inspiration.
"Consideration : an act, forbearance or promise by one party to a contract that constitutes the price for which he buys the promise of the other. Consideration is essential to the validity of any contract other than one made by deed. Without consideration, an agreement not made by deed is not binding - it is "nudum pactum..."
Further
"... Foru major principles :
1) valuable consideration... the act etc... must have some economic value"
2) consideration need not be adequate but it must be sufficient..."
3) consideration must move from the promisee..."
4) Considertiaon may be executory or executed but it must not be past"...
This is a straight lift from the Oxford Dictionary of English Law. Just by way of info.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2006-03-16 14:58:12 GMT)
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England's civil law is based on comon law principles, not Roman law. In France, of course, it is otherwise.
A basic principle of English law is that for a contract to be valid, there must be valuable consideration. That value need not be expressed in monetary terms, but it must have some economic value. Contracts made under deed are an exception to that rule.
Note two basic legal systems, Roamn and common law. France essentially Roman law, England essentially common law. NB that Scotland has a system of Roman inspiration.
"Consideration : an act, forbearance or promise by one party to a contract that constitutes the price for which he buys the promise of the other. Consideration is essential to the validity of any contract other than one made by deed. Without consideration, an agreement not made by deed is not binding - it is "nudum pactum..."
Further
"... Foru major principles :
1) valuable consideration... the act etc... must have some economic value"
2) consideration need not be adequate but it must be sufficient..."
3) consideration must move from the promisee..."
4) Considertiaon may be executory or executed but it must not be past"...
This is a straight lift from the Oxford Dictionary of English Law. Just by way of info.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2006-03-16 14:58:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
England's civil law is based on comon law principles, not Roman law. In France, of course, it is otherwise.
A basic principle of English law is that for a contract to be valid, there must be valuable consideration. That value need not be expressed in monetary terms, but it must have some economic value. Contracts made under deed are an exception to that rule.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Rafael Wugalter (X)
: These principles are, of course, entirely inapplicable to French law. Don't use the term "consideration" in documents governed by French, Belgian, Swiss (etc.) law.
2 mins
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We are perhaps just going to have to agree to disagree about how we would render this one, were it ours to translate
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1 hr
whether value is given in exchange or not
The concept of "consideration" is foreign to civil law systems such as that of France and Belgium.
From the web site referenced below:
... This discrepancy can probably be explained by the fact that to French civil law lawyers, who have no concept of consideration, “mere” agreement makes no sense ...
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Note added at 1 hr (2006-03-16 12:59:36 GMT)
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Naturally, "by onerous or gratuitous title" is absolutely correct -- in fact, it is used in Quebec legalese all the time -- but Americans (with the exception of Louisiana lawyers, etc., who are familiar with the Roman/Napoleonic civil law system) will have no idea what it means.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2006-03-16 15:23:16 GMT)
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In the expression "by onerous title", the word "title" is not being used in its common-law sense, so it can apply whether property OR services are involved. When the term "title" is used in a civil law context (France, Quebec, etc.) it simply means "manner or "fashion". The problem, as Nikki's comments show, is that when Anglo-Saxons who are not experts in French law see certain terms, they will assume the terms have the common law meaning with which they are familiar. This is why netural work-arounds, or translator's notes, are very important.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2006-03-16 15:27:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
In the expression "by onerous title", the word "title" is not being used in its common-law sense, so it can apply whether property OR services are involved. When the term "title" is used in a civil law context (France, Quebec, etc.) it simply means "manner or "fashion". The problem, as Nikki's comments show, is that when Anglo-Saxons who are not experts in French law see certain terms, they will assume the terms have the common law meaning with which they are familiar. This is why netural work-arounds, or translator's notes, are very important.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2006-03-16 15:47:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
In the expression "by onerous title", the word "title" is not being used in its common-law sense, so it can apply whether property OR services are involved. When the term "title" is used in a civil law context (France, Quebec, etc.) it simply means "manner or "fashion". The problem, as Nikki's comments show, is that when Anglo-Saxons who are not experts in French law see certain terms, they will assume the terms have the common law meaning with which they are familiar. This is why netural work-arounds, or translator's notes, are very important.
From the web site referenced below:
... This discrepancy can probably be explained by the fact that to French civil law lawyers, who have no concept of consideration, “mere” agreement makes no sense ...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-03-16 12:59:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Naturally, "by onerous or gratuitous title" is absolutely correct -- in fact, it is used in Quebec legalese all the time -- but Americans (with the exception of Louisiana lawyers, etc., who are familiar with the Roman/Napoleonic civil law system) will have no idea what it means.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2006-03-16 15:23:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
In the expression "by onerous title", the word "title" is not being used in its common-law sense, so it can apply whether property OR services are involved. When the term "title" is used in a civil law context (France, Quebec, etc.) it simply means "manner or "fashion". The problem, as Nikki's comments show, is that when Anglo-Saxons who are not experts in French law see certain terms, they will assume the terms have the common law meaning with which they are familiar. This is why netural work-arounds, or translator's notes, are very important.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2006-03-16 15:27:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
In the expression "by onerous title", the word "title" is not being used in its common-law sense, so it can apply whether property OR services are involved. When the term "title" is used in a civil law context (France, Quebec, etc.) it simply means "manner or "fashion". The problem, as Nikki's comments show, is that when Anglo-Saxons who are not experts in French law see certain terms, they will assume the terms have the common law meaning with which they are familiar. This is why netural work-arounds, or translator's notes, are very important.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2006-03-16 15:47:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
In the expression "by onerous title", the word "title" is not being used in its common-law sense, so it can apply whether property OR services are involved. When the term "title" is used in a civil law context (France, Quebec, etc.) it simply means "manner or "fashion". The problem, as Nikki's comments show, is that when Anglo-Saxons who are not experts in French law see certain terms, they will assume the terms have the common law meaning with which they are familiar. This is why netural work-arounds, or translator's notes, are very important.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: UK based asker - "consideration" is spot on of course. No consideration, no contract, unless made under deed. Title relates to property law / real estate, this is contract for the provision of services.
1 hr
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"Consideration" is a principle of English law but not French law, which probably governs the text at issue. Inapplicable foreign terms should not normally be imported into translations. If there is no work-around a note is essential, but here there is one
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neutral |
ketter
: "Whether value is given in exchange or not" conveys the basic meaning. However, it's a bit clunky, and it doesn't show up when searching the phrase on the web. I see no harm whatsoever in using the term "charge."
4 hrs
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neutral |
df49f (X)
: how to "give a value in exchange of " something? + French phrase "à titre" is not about title to property or anything else
5 hrs
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If you give me 2 cookies and I give you a euro for them, I have given you value in exchange for the cookies. You are quite right about à titre - the use of the word "title" in the translation is accepted e.g. in Quebec but wd confuse average US/GB reader
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6 hrs
see comment - French legal definitions
from : Vocabulaire Juridique de Gérard Cornu (highly reliable French legal dictionary)
à titre onéreux: qui comporte une charge, une contrepartie. antonyme: gratuit;
acte à titre onéreux: acte juridique en vertu duquel celui qui reçoit une prestation doit en fournir une contrepartie;
contrepartie: dans un contrat synallagmatique, synonyme de contre-prestation;
"onéreux" means "that costs something, that has a value, that must be paid for in cash or in kind". A transfer "à titre onéreux" is one for which the transferee must pay/give something in return (a "contrepartie").
Referring to Nikki's answer, I can't be too positive about the consequences of the lack of a "contrepartie" on the validity of a contract, but I think the notion of "lésion" could have something to do with it (under French law, a contract can be cancelled in case of "lésion", i.e., when the price is so disproportionate to the service provided that it causes a prejudice to one of the parties -however, there are specific conditions for that, in particular, conditions pertaining to the amount of the prejudice incurred). On the whole, I don't think using the word "consideration" will pose any issue in your particular context. In fact, I think it would be a pretty accurate translation! Surely, it is broad enough to cover a large variety of cases, which I guess is precisely what the author meant to do in your context. Bref, "with or without consideration" would work fine.
hope that helped
à titre onéreux: qui comporte une charge, une contrepartie. antonyme: gratuit;
acte à titre onéreux: acte juridique en vertu duquel celui qui reçoit une prestation doit en fournir une contrepartie;
contrepartie: dans un contrat synallagmatique, synonyme de contre-prestation;
"onéreux" means "that costs something, that has a value, that must be paid for in cash or in kind". A transfer "à titre onéreux" is one for which the transferee must pay/give something in return (a "contrepartie").
Referring to Nikki's answer, I can't be too positive about the consequences of the lack of a "contrepartie" on the validity of a contract, but I think the notion of "lésion" could have something to do with it (under French law, a contract can be cancelled in case of "lésion", i.e., when the price is so disproportionate to the service provided that it causes a prejudice to one of the parties -however, there are specific conditions for that, in particular, conditions pertaining to the amount of the prejudice incurred). On the whole, I don't think using the word "consideration" will pose any issue in your particular context. In fact, I think it would be a pretty accurate translation! Surely, it is broad enough to cover a large variety of cases, which I guess is precisely what the author meant to do in your context. Bref, "with or without consideration" would work fine.
hope that helped
Discussion