Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

à titre onéreux ou gracieux

English translation:

with or without charge

Added to glossary by ketter
Mar 16, 2006 11:49
18 yrs ago
55 viewers *
French term

à titre onéreux ou gracieux

French to English Bus/Financial Law: Contract(s) supplier contract
Le Contrat ne pourra en aucun cas être cédé ou transféré par le Prestataire, même en partie, **à titre onéreux ou gracieux**, sans l'accord écrit et préalable du Client.

I know what it means, but it keeps on coming back and I can't seem to find a coherent way of putting it. Is there a specific translation for this in english??

TIA

Discussion

Rafael Wugalter (X) Mar 16, 2006:
Be careful about using the words "consideration" and "charge" which are either unknown, or do not mean the same thing, in civil law systems. "Charge" in civil law can mean a hypothec or other security on property, and "consideration" has probs; c below.

Proposed translations

+1
4 hrs
Selected

with or without charge

Keep it simple. I had this phrase when studying translation at Monterey.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Rafael Wugalter (X) : The intent behind this is laudable, but the word "charge" has a specific meaning in civil law, so the suggestion just a bit risky. A charge in civil law (and this document is probably governed by that law) also means a security such as a hypothec.
1 hr
May be, but I think it would be clear by the context. Plus, "with or without charge" is so common in contracts, I think an argument about the phrase is academic or at least nitpicky.
agree QTtranslator (X) : This is easy to understand and clear. I disagree with Rafael about the word charge. I think you have to go with common usage.
1 hr
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Similar doubts as Rafael about charge, potential for confusion with charge in the sense of "legal charge", mortgage etc. But in context, altho 'probably understandable, does not read naturally in my view. Play safe : "free of charge" / "for payment"
4 days
I think context is all important, and the phrase will be understood in context.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "With such a debate it was difficult to choose, but this was clear and understandable in context. Thanks."
+3
5 mins

for or without valuable consideration

or

for valuable consideration or for free, but I think above fits better...
Peer comment(s):

agree Sandra Petch : "for valuable consideration or free of charge" is what I was about to suggest / I think your "for or without" is perfectly fine!
1 min
thanks... like "free of charge" better than "for free" i too like for or without... but if Muriel goes w/free.. I like "free of charge"... Best, msg
agree cmwilliams (X)
30 mins
thanks
disagree Rafael Wugalter (X) : People will understand this, but the notion of "consideration" is a common law concept, totally foreign to civil law systems.
54 mins
hmmmm.... I believe this is the most obvious and useful translation, and certainly less awkward than your suggestion, but we'll see what the asker thinks....
agree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Of course. Basic contract law. No contract valid - unless made under deed - without valuable consideration.
2 hrs
Thanks Nikki!!! and that from the other side of the pond!!
agree BAmary (X) : When you translate into English you do it so people who speak English can understand it, and they usually live in Common Law countries, so it doesn't matter if it's a foreign concept to Civil Law countries...
9 hrs
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-1
6 mins

by onerous or lucrative title

The Practicing Notary, Baton Rouge Notary Public Baton Rouge ...As to both movables and immovables, a transfer by onerous title must be made in writing and a transfer by gratuitous title must be made by authentic act. ...
www.la-notary.com/civil/civil3_6.html - 43k

Bill 202 An Act respecting Hillcrest Protestant Cemetery of Deux ...
Whereas the transfer by onerous title of the vacant land described in the ...
the land described in the schedule by onerous title to a person who is not an ...
www2.publicationsduquebec.gouv.qc.ca/dynamicSearch/ telecharge.php?type=5&file=2003C202A.PDF

lucrative title

Title Insurance — A title to real estate that has been acquired with nothing given in exchange for it.

Compare: onerous title
See: real estate, title

http://insource.nils.com/gloss/GlossaryTerm.asp?tid=3626





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Note added at 7 mins (2006-03-16 11:57:18 GMT)
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lucrative title Definitionlucrative title - definition of lucrative title - Title obtained as a gift or at a price significantly below the market price.
www.investorwords.com/2905/lucrative_title.html - 19k - 14 Mar 2006 -


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Note added at 8 mins (2006-03-16 11:58:30 GMT)
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French Civil Code: Book III: Of Acquiring Property, Title XX
Of The Different Modes Of Acquiring Property. TITLE XX. OF PRESCRIPTION. ...
whether by universal or particular title, or by lucrative or chargeable title. ...
www.napoleon-series.org/research/ government/code/book3/c_title20.html
Peer comment(s):

agree Rafael Wugalter (X) : This is absolutely correct in civil law, but only civil lawyers will understand it. Thus, it is better to say "whether or not value is given in exchge". If you opt for a term client wnt understd, u shd do a note to client. I hve civ/cmn law degrees, BTW.
51 mins
well we aim for 'speciality vocabulary' in all translation, don't we?
disagree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : In civil law perhaps, the current context is civil law too of coruse. But the examples cited above refer to title in the sense of ownership of property / real estate or otherwise, whereas this is contract for the provision of services I think.
2 hrs
disagree df49f (X) : agree with Nikki: the examples cited above are either about "title/deed" and French phrase "à titre..." is absolutely NOT about a title/deed, or (not great) translations from French
6 hrs
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26 mins

for consideration or free of charge

another way of putting it
Peer comment(s):

agree cmwilliams (X)
10 mins
disagree Rafael Wugalter (X) : Technically incorrect because "consideration", in the sense of value in exchange, is a concept unknown to true civil law systems. It is preferable to write something like "whether or not value is given in exchange". Avoid "charge" : spec. mng. in civ law.
38 mins
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+1
28 mins

by onerous or gratuitous title

The phrase means that the contract cannot be ceded or assigned to third parties either under:
'onerous title': for example, a sale where there is a price or other consideration to be paid)

'gratuitous title': for example, a donation where no price is paid.

These are the proper legal terms which are usually found in the Laws.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Rafael Wugalter (X) : Sure, but if you want to make sure the reader actually understands, you have to provide a translator's note. This would be gibberish to most people in common law systems.
55 mins
I agree with putting a translators note! but I still think that the proper legal terminology should be retained in the translation
agree Abdellatif Bouhid
1 hr
Thanks
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3 hrs

Notes

Quick note on consideration, a basic doctrine of English law.
Note two basic legal systems, Roamn and common law. France essentially Roman law, England essentially common law. NB that Scotland has a system of Roman inspiration.

"Consideration : an act, forbearance or promise by one party to a contract that constitutes the price for which he buys the promise of the other. Consideration is essential to the validity of any contract other than one made by deed. Without consideration, an agreement not made by deed is not binding - it is "nudum pactum..."

Further

"... Foru major principles :
1) valuable consideration... the act etc... must have some economic value"
2) consideration need not be adequate but it must be sufficient..."
3) consideration must move from the promisee..."
4) Considertiaon may be executory or executed but it must not be past"...

This is a straight lift from the Oxford Dictionary of English Law. Just by way of info.


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Note added at 3 hrs (2006-03-16 14:58:12 GMT)
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England's civil law is based on comon law principles, not Roman law. In France, of course, it is otherwise.

A basic principle of English law is that for a contract to be valid, there must be valuable consideration. That value need not be expressed in monetary terms, but it must have some economic value. Contracts made under deed are an exception to that rule.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Rafael Wugalter (X) : These principles are, of course, entirely inapplicable to French law. Don't use the term "consideration" in documents governed by French, Belgian, Swiss (etc.) law.
2 mins
We are perhaps just going to have to agree to disagree about how we would render this one, were it ours to translate
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1 hr

whether value is given in exchange or not

The concept of "consideration" is foreign to civil law systems such as that of France and Belgium.

From the web site referenced below:
... This discrepancy can probably be explained by the fact that to French civil law lawyers, who have no concept of consideration, “mere” agreement makes no sense ...

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Note added at 1 hr (2006-03-16 12:59:36 GMT)
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Naturally, "by onerous or gratuitous title" is absolutely correct -- in fact, it is used in Quebec legalese all the time -- but Americans (with the exception of Louisiana lawyers, etc., who are familiar with the Roman/Napoleonic civil law system) will have no idea what it means.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2006-03-16 15:23:16 GMT)
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In the expression "by onerous title", the word "title" is not being used in its common-law sense, so it can apply whether property OR services are involved. When the term "title" is used in a civil law context (France, Quebec, etc.) it simply means "manner or "fashion". The problem, as Nikki's comments show, is that when Anglo-Saxons who are not experts in French law see certain terms, they will assume the terms have the common law meaning with which they are familiar. This is why netural work-arounds, or translator's notes, are very important.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2006-03-16 15:27:08 GMT)
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In the expression "by onerous title", the word "title" is not being used in its common-law sense, so it can apply whether property OR services are involved. When the term "title" is used in a civil law context (France, Quebec, etc.) it simply means "manner or "fashion". The problem, as Nikki's comments show, is that when Anglo-Saxons who are not experts in French law see certain terms, they will assume the terms have the common law meaning with which they are familiar. This is why netural work-arounds, or translator's notes, are very important.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2006-03-16 15:47:57 GMT)
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In the expression "by onerous title", the word "title" is not being used in its common-law sense, so it can apply whether property OR services are involved. When the term "title" is used in a civil law context (France, Quebec, etc.) it simply means "manner or "fashion". The problem, as Nikki's comments show, is that when Anglo-Saxons who are not experts in French law see certain terms, they will assume the terms have the common law meaning with which they are familiar. This is why netural work-arounds, or translator's notes, are very important.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : UK based asker - "consideration" is spot on of course. No consideration, no contract, unless made under deed. Title relates to property law / real estate, this is contract for the provision of services.
1 hr
"Consideration" is a principle of English law but not French law, which probably governs the text at issue. Inapplicable foreign terms should not normally be imported into translations. If there is no work-around a note is essential, but here there is one
neutral ketter : "Whether value is given in exchange or not" conveys the basic meaning. However, it's a bit clunky, and it doesn't show up when searching the phrase on the web. I see no harm whatsoever in using the term "charge."
4 hrs
neutral df49f (X) : how to "give a value in exchange of " something? + French phrase "à titre" is not about title to property or anything else
5 hrs
If you give me 2 cookies and I give you a euro for them, I have given you value in exchange for the cookies. You are quite right about à titre - the use of the word "title" in the translation is accepted e.g. in Quebec but wd confuse average US/GB reader
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6 hrs

see comment - French legal definitions

from : Vocabulaire Juridique de Gérard Cornu (highly reliable French legal dictionary)

à titre onéreux: qui comporte une charge, une contrepartie. antonyme: gratuit;

acte à titre onéreux: acte juridique en vertu duquel celui qui reçoit une prestation doit en fournir une contrepartie;

contrepartie: dans un contrat synallagmatique, synonyme de contre-prestation;

"onéreux" means "that costs something, that has a value, that must be paid for in cash or in kind". A transfer "à titre onéreux" is one for which the transferee must pay/give something in return (a "contrepartie").
Referring to Nikki's answer, I can't be too positive about the consequences of the lack of a "contrepartie" on the validity of a contract, but I think the notion of "lésion" could have something to do with it (under French law, a contract can be cancelled in case of "lésion", i.e., when the price is so disproportionate to the service provided that it causes a prejudice to one of the parties -however, there are specific conditions for that, in particular, conditions pertaining to the amount of the prejudice incurred). On the whole, I don't think using the word "consideration" will pose any issue in your particular context. In fact, I think it would be a pretty accurate translation! Surely, it is broad enough to cover a large variety of cases, which I guess is precisely what the author meant to do in your context. Bref, "with or without consideration" would work fine.

hope that helped
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