| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| Totally illegal in France | Jul 22, 2012 |
Hi,
In France, identity control/verification can only be done by police and gendarmerie officers, and in some cases by customs officers. Final dot.
There's a "tolerance" when opening a bank account. Also for Post Office officers when one comes to get money, registered letter or parcel, and for Social Security officers. But all those officers are sworn civil servants.
Here, you'll find the official text conc... See more Hi,
In France, identity control/verification can only be done by police and gendarmerie officers, and in some cases by customs officers. Final dot.
There's a "tolerance" when opening a bank account. Also for Post Office officers when one comes to get money, registered letter or parcel, and for Social Security officers. But all those officers are sworn civil servants.
Here, you'll find the official text concerning the French Law (in French) :
http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F1036.xhtml
I suppose that similar rules might apply in other European countries.
It could be nice if, in this forum, you would be so kind as to not consider US practices and situation as the universal rule. Also, if you create new rules, please do not consider that native English-speaking translators are the only ones entitled to create and apply them to the rest of the world.
Thank you
Have a great Sunday.
Catherine
[Edited at 2012-07-22 08:00 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell 
United States
Local time: 07:44
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Thankyouthankyouthankyou, Catherine! | Jul 22, 2012 |
Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:
Also, if you create new rules, please do not consider that native English-speaking translators are the only ones entitled to create and apply them to the rest of the world.
Same feelings here.
Best,
Nicole 
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 07:44
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | This might be interesting. | Jul 22, 2012 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I am not talking about an FBI-like check, come on.
You can run a checklist like this during the native language declaration process:
Country of birth:
Languages spoken by parents:
Language(s) spoken at home:
Instructional language in school:
etc.
I never said it had to be "verified" with documents. You can lie about all these things. I don't care.
B
Country of birth: Germany
Languages spoken by parents: Standard German, various kinds of regional dialects and French (they are insanely francophile, why do you think they gave me and my sister French first names?)
Language(s) spoken at home: Standard German, various kinds of regional dialects and French
Instructional language in school: English (10 years), Latin (5 years), French (5 years) and Ancient Greek (2 years).
There.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 16:44
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Surely everyone knows X | Jul 22, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
For Nicole, your CV no doubt makes clear exactly who you are: a German immigrant to the US. Everyone is familiar with the idea that US citizens may be native speakers of other languages, so I don't see why that would cause confusion. Are any of your clients that unsophisticated?
I think that that is a dangerous assumption.
For example, had I not checked Nicole's résumé to discover whether she is in fact an immigrant in the US (born and raised in Germany), I might have assumed that she was born in the US and grew up in one of those German religious communities we all hear about (you know, the ones the media call "Dutch"). If that were so, then Nicole's "native German" would have been native, yes, but it would have been native archaic, and it would likely have been polluted with Americanisms.
[However, have you looked at Nicole's résumé at all? I did, and I saw no indication on it that she is a German immigrant. In fact, although I got the impression that she lived in Germany for a while (she worked in Germany itself from 1992 to 2001, in an administrative function) and had dealings with Germany (she delivered work to a number of Germany-based concerns and even won some prizes from Germany entities), there is absolutely nothing there to suggest that she was born in Germany or lived there as a child or a teenager or went to school there. In fact, right a the top of her résumé it says that she studied at a US university. A German university is also mentioned, in second place.]
You say that "everyone is familiar with the idea that US citizens may be native speakers of other languages" but I must have missed that boat, because my impression of the US is that most residents are monolingual in English, and speak no other languages except for some gardener Spanish in the south and west.
The "everyone knows that X" problem is a problem for me too. Many people know that Afrikaans and Dutch are related, so when they see I'm an Afrikaans translator living in cloggy land, some outsourcers assume that I must be a Dutch translator chancing his luck with a related language. Other outsourcers who know something about language interference, and who know that South African expats have settled in Holland, may steer clear of me despite my claim to be native in Afrikaans, rightfully considering that my language may have become so polluted with Dutch that I'm no longer in touch with what real Afrikaans sounds like.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 16:44
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Instructional languages | Jul 22, 2012 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
Instructional language in school: English (10 years), Latin (5 years), French (5 years) and Ancient Greek (2 years).
Are you sure you were taught in Latin and Greek? Which subjects were you taught in Latin and Greek?
Or do you mean that you learnt Latin and Greek in Latin and Greek? I'm not sure if one should count learning e.g. Latin in Latin as "instructional".
On the other hand, in some countries/schools the children learn Latin in English, so having learnt Latin in Latin would count for something. For example, at school, I was taught English in English, and everyting else in Afrikaans.
[This was actually a difference between white English speaking schools and white Afrikaans speaking schools in South Africa -- in pre-post-apartheid years, in English speaking schools, children learnt Afrikaans in English (i.e. the teacher spoke English but taught the kids how to speak, read and write Afrikaans), but in Afrikaans speaking schools, children learnt English in English (no Afrikaans was spoken during the entire lesson).]
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 07:44
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Instructional Languages | Jul 22, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Nicole Schnell wrote:
Instructional language in school: English (10 years), Latin (5 years), French (5 years) and Ancient Greek (2 years). Are you sure you were taught in Latin and Greek? Which subjects were you taught in Latin and Greek? Or do you mean that you learnt Latin and Greek in Latin and Greek? I'm not sure if one should count learning e.g. Latin in Latin as "instructional". On the other hand, in some countries/schools the children learn Latin in English, so having learnt Latin in Latin would count for something. For example, at school, I was taught English in English, and everyting else in Afrikaans. [This was actually a difference between white English speaking schools and white Afrikaans speaking schools in South Africa -- in pre-post-apartheid years, in English speaking schools, children learnt Afrikaans in English (i.e. the teacher spoke English but taught the kids how to speak, read and write Afrikaans), but in Afrikaans speaking schools, children learnt English in English (no Afrikaans was spoken during the entire lesson).]
Yes, Samuel. My school was part of a new and experimental "school system". Starting in middle school (while there was no such thing officially), we were trained to develop our own schedules and pick our classes, with the goal to prepare us kids for university as early as possible. Therefore the classes were brutal and extremely fast-paced, but we loved it. I could get rid of math (yuck!) and sports (yuck!) in the 11th grade and replaced them with Ancient Greek and Philosophy through grade 13.
Edit: Latin, French, English are mandatory at a German "Neusprachliches Gymnasium" anyway.
[Edited at 2012-07-22 10:25 GMT]
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 07:44
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | What if I were an impostor? | Jul 22, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote: @ Nicole If I had to submit a copy of my passport, my profile page would state "Native speaker of German" next to "US citizen". I wouldn't support them being next to each other. They are not so directly connected. But I do think there's value here. For Nicole, your CV no doubt makes clear exactly who you are: a German immigrant to the US. Everyone is familiar with the idea that US citizens may be native speakers of other languages, so I don't see why that would cause confusion.
My own long-term clients in the US pay on average 2-3 cents less per source word for translations from German into English compared to translations from English into German. Probably because we have a host of native English speakers in the US. Approx. 300 million, that is. What if were an impostor, just to be able to harvest much nicer rates?
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 16:44
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| What is an "instructional language" | Jul 22, 2012 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: Samuel Murray wrote: Nicole Schnell wrote:
Instructional language in school: English (10 years), Latin (5 years), French (5 years) and Ancient Greek (2 years). Are you sure you were taught in Latin and Greek? Which subjects were you taught in Latin and Greek? ... Or do you mean that you learnt Latin and Greek in Latin and Greek? ...in the 11th grade and replaced them with Ancient Greek and Philosophy through grade 13. ... Latin, French, English are mandatory at a German "Neusprachliches Gymnasium" anyway.
Yes, but my point is: what is an "instructional language"? I understood Bernhard's "instructional language" to mean "the langauge in which you were are taught your subjects", i.e. the language that the teacher spoke and the language that you spoke to your teacher.
You did not learn Mathematics or Geography or History or Biology or Marketing or Accounting or whatever from a teacher who spoke Latin to you while teaching you those subjects (and you did not speak Latin back to that teacher, and you did not write your exams or articles in those subjects in Latin).
Therefore Latin and Greek were not instructional languages (except if you count the subject Greek itself, which you may only count if the teacher didn't speak German or English to you (and vice versa) during Greek classes). Most likely (I'm guessing), your instructional language was German, or possibly English. Am I right?
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 22:44
Chinese to English
| The hypothetical dangers of hypothetical changes. | Jul 22, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
The "everyone knows that X" problem is a problem for me too. Many people know that Afrikaans and Dutch are related, so when they see I'm an Afrikaans translator living in cloggy land, some outsourcers assume that I must be a Dutch translator chancing his luck with a related language.
This is a fair point, and worth weighing up. But the form of your argument is this:
I'm not sure we should supply partial information X because on the basis of partial information X, some clients might make assumption Y.
Fine, possible.
Balanced against that are two arguments.
1) In general, the more information the better. There can be exceptions where "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", but in general, everyone knows that they're working with partial information. People know how to compensate for missing information on my profile. It's an imperfect world, and clients live in it, too.
2) You're only presenting half the argument. The question is not "are mistaken assumptions possible on the basis of partial information X?". The question is: Currently we have partial information Q (including a health dose of misinformation). If we add some (more accurate?) partial information X, are clients likely to draw more or fewer mistaken conclusions?
That's been the case throughout this thread. For *any* potential solution, we can all imagine some hypothetical translator who might be unlucky enough to be slightly worse off. But that has to be balanced against the potential good that solutions might do. Otherwise we're just paralysed. Any change could have a downside. But where's the upside to doing nothing?
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 22:44
Chinese to English
Nicole Schnell wrote:
What if were an impostor, just to be able to harvest much nicer rates?
Same response. What if, what if, what if.
Right now, there *are* lots of impostors trying to harvest better rates. Weigh that reality against your potential what-ifness.
| | | | | Au contraire | Jul 22, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Let's think this through carefully, because if we focus on the exceptions we'll never get anywhere.
The exceptions, the liars, are exactly who this is about. I contend that all we have ever needed to do for a quick and dirty (i.e. cheap, costing the website next to nothing) solution to this is:
i) define what an exception (liar) is (i.e. basically a quantifiable threshold for crappy written output in a claimed "N" language, possibly but not necessarily using tests along the lines Michele F has described)
and
ii) decide on the outcome for those found "guilty".
Instead, we (well, everyone else - I remain the perfectly focused logic machine ) have become side-tracked into attempting to a define a perfect verification system for every possible category and combination of translator and interpreter in the known universe, with (apparently) still no penalty for lying. Ludicrous.
re: nationality: I thought the idea was only ever that it would be evidence, not proof. If in some situations, nationality is not evidence of anything, then disregard it. That said, I'm increasingly disinclined to see the point of including it, even in a pointless perfect system that will never be built, and still less in any other kind.
| | | | | Maybe this is not closely related to this thread, but I think | Jul 22, 2012 |
it actually is. You cannot hold two passports according to American law. You are either American or you are not. If you are an American citizen, you have one passport and one nationality - American. You may have a different ethnicity for emotional reasons, and tradition, but keeping two passports or calling yourself a national of another country is against the law. If caught the second time with a foreign passport, you can get serious jail time. The first time the passport is usually only confis... See more it actually is. You cannot hold two passports according to American law. You are either American or you are not. If you are an American citizen, you have one passport and one nationality - American. You may have a different ethnicity for emotional reasons, and tradition, but keeping two passports or calling yourself a national of another country is against the law. If caught the second time with a foreign passport, you can get serious jail time. The first time the passport is usually only confiscated, although you may end up in jail even the first time. ▲ Collapse
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 07:44
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | We digress... | Jul 22, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Are you sure you were taught in Latin and Greek?
Why would anyone converse in Ancient Languages? While we were forced to chew our way through ol' Julius Caesar's endless, dull and annoying Gallic Wars (some people shouldn't write...), which is nothing but our own German history (!), our Latin teacher used to drag us students across the entire country and made us climb and admire countless ruins. In return we bought the poor man cheap old Roman coins, which he had to admire sufficiently. Later on they let you read beautiful Ovid and such, a linguistic delight!
The classes in Ancient Greek were great - reading Greek mythology in its original language is fascinating and entertaining.
To this day I hardly ever need a dictionary to decipher doctors' lingo or to figure out tech terms.
Yes, but my point is: what is an "instructional language"?
Who knows - and is it relevant?
| | | | | Impostors with better rates? | Jul 22, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote: Nicole Schnell wrote:
What if were an impostor, just to be able to harvest much nicer rates? Same response. What if, what if, what if. Right now, there *are* lots of impostors trying to harvest better rates. Weigh that reality against your potential what-ifness.
Really? I thought this was about those impostors getting the jobs because of their lower rates...
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 07:44
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Why would anyone purposely go for lower rates? | Jul 22, 2012 |
Annamaria Amik wrote:
Really? I thought this was about those impostors getting the jobs because of their lower rates...
I fail to see any logic in this approach. If this is the case - good for the rest of us because all the peanuts are gone.
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