dkfmmuc Nov 24, 2015:

@aykon: Appreciated / thumbs up!

Björn Vrooman Nov 24, 2015:

@aykon Thank you! A welcome feedback post - most askers don't deliver on (or believe in) this kind of promise later on.

aykon (asker) Nov 24, 2015:

just to let you know, the client (and their client) didn't get back to me about this after their check, so my choice was fine :-)

dkfmmuc Nov 12, 2015:

Yes, I did! For an even higher of clarity I just post my comments there.

Björn Vrooman Nov 12, 2015:

[deleted as not relevant to answer] My apologies, aykon. Don't want to hijack this thread :)

Björn Vrooman Nov 11, 2015:

@aykon Thanks for keeping us posted.

My concern was more with the glossary entry, precisely because people will be referring back to it.

I just had my US partner tell me that in one of the business classes in university, the professor chose upsell as the word to explain differences in meaning between German and English.

If it fits regarding your context, by all means use it.

What I tried to explain here was:

A) "höherwertig" does not mean the product is more expensive, only that it has a higher quality. Hence, I don't know how the "back-translation" is going to give you the desired result: It will not include the higher profit margin bit essential to the sentence.

B) The German Upsell seems to be, in fact, limited to higher quality, which doesn't do the English word justice considering its broad applicability. See the example below with the 5 cans for 1 dollar, while 1 can costs 32 cents. That's not even more expensive, it's just getting more of the same sold, while the quality is the same.

I simply want to avoid the glossary entry to be context-specific, as next time one can be certain people will refer to it, despite the upsell question being different - not a first :)

aykon (asker) Nov 11, 2015:

i have submitted the translation and if i hear back about the "upsell" i will let you know. as i mentioned before, the translation is back-translated again and i cannot change the sentences much. adding "höherwertig" (and IMO the product they are trying to sell is more expensive and more advanced) doesn't change the structure too much. but we'll see if the client is happy. i will keep you posted. thank you to everyone who helped.

aykon (asker) Nov 11, 2015:

of course not all germans (or actually, i mean german speakers) are agressive and the vast majority of proz members are helpful, but i have noticed in proz (and deutsche-in-london forum) that some tend to make wild assumptions, are very picky and insulting and love playing the police. i have not seen this from other nationalities, but i will keep an eye out now in proz. i'm interested :-)

Björn Vrooman Nov 11, 2015:

@aykon I don't know how often you're reading DE->EN questions, but I can tell you that depending on who is participating in the exchange, "venom" is the only word you can use. It's about who is taking part in it, not what nationality they are.

I am more puzzled about the end result: I have never heard of "höherwertige digitale kanäle" in my life and it all comes down to how you understand "höherwertig" (as explained below), i.e. increase in quality (which is an upgrade, basically) instead of increase in revenue while letting customers believe they are getting more value for their money. If you want to have an "exact" translation, "höherwertig" is certainly not the word to choose.

Never mind that this would get you at odds with the internet's "Netzneutralität" - you can increase the speed of transmission by getting 3G instead of UMTS, but the quality depends on the sender and the data packages sent.

And as I tried to explain in several posts below, equating upsell with higher quality products is just plain wrong. Another example from #GoogleGate:
"AdWords account reps are paid to upsell new products and services that may or may not be in the client’s best interest."

Value for money?

dkfmmuc Nov 11, 2015:

It's not the first time this year.... ... that I have to say sorry for other German citizens (in the online and the offline) world.

But you can be sure that not *all* Germans are aggressive here at KuDoZ.

Rolf Keller Nov 11, 2015:

@Björn "Maybe I just wanted to "lure you out" :) "

To rouse the lion, is dang'rous error ... hat schon Schiller gesagt. :-))))

aykon (asker) Nov 11, 2015:

why are the germans (and austrians?) in proz always so agressive??? @brigitte, go and do some knitting or something instead of snooping around profiles and insulting people! i always try to close my queries (since i know you have to) and the open queries are from 2010 and further back! sometimes, i didn't pick an answer, because they were all invalid. with technical terms, you get a lot of people answering who have no idea about the subject so it tends to happen that none of the few answers is correct. and of course, i search the internet first before i ask a question. as explained in my previous post, i was looking for the closest translation for upsell as a verb, so i asked the proz community. if "upsell" appears in the glossary, it doesn't mean it's the right translation for me.

aykon (asker) Nov 11, 2015:

as this translation was back-translated, it had to be very exact and i was looking for the best option to translate upsell as a verb. (yes, there are plenty of translations online, but they all quite dramatically change the sentence structure) there doesn't seem to be a way using only one verb in german, so i went with "höherwertige digitale kanäle anbieten". so far, the client hasn't got back to me about it. imo, it would fit here as the new products are most likely more expensive and better quality.

Björn Vrooman Nov 11, 2015:

No, Gerd, I am rather puzzled by, e.g., Doreen agreeing to Upsell now, but offering no explanation why it would match. I have not seen one good reason up till now to back up the claim made.

dkfmmuc Nov 11, 2015:

Dear colleagues, I am very sorry for the Lufthansa example. Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused.

I *thought* I could clarify my thinking regarding that term. Sorry for any distraction.

Björn Vrooman Nov 11, 2015:

To add another reference http://www.profitfuzion.com/marketing-articles/upselling-ver...

A few parts from it
"The Campbell Soup Company was among the first companies that modernized the concept of the upsell in the 1960s. This was largely due to their trusted brand and reputation for quality. At the time, a can of soup sold retail for 32 cents. Campbell introduced the now common upsell technique of 5 cans of soup for 1 dollar."

"Common upsell offers can include: 1) more of the same product, 2) the same product with more features, 3) the same product with a higher level of perceived quality or brand, 4) a deluxe bundled package."

Note: Only number 3 may relate to "höherwertig."

"A cross-sell technique basically tries to get the customer to purchase different, but complimentary products, in an attempt to increase their transaction size."

Maybe it's the actual misuse of "höherwertig" here that gets me. Duden: eine gute Qualität aufweisend; höher (1a)

I think "höherpreisig" would fit better, but as long as this issue has not been resolved, any equation falls flat, IMO.

Björn Vrooman Nov 11, 2015:

@Rolf Maybe I just wanted to "lure you out" :)

Considering that besides the link Eckehard posted, we now also have an answer indiscriminately using Upsell for upselling and an agree to it saying "im gegebenen Kontext," I am wondering whether the discussion about the term is too much focused on "Nebenschauplätze," as valid as your points are (so don't misunderstand me here!).

There is a popular German example for this kind of upsell and I'd appreciate an answer from you here:

Many supermarkets have their own "deluxe" brands, which actually just have a nicer packacke for pretty much the same product. In a market where margins are so low as in the food industry, it needs creative ways to charge more to the customer without notably increasing your investment. That's also upselling and definitely not "höherwertig," unless you want to get stuck in euphemisms.

Rolf Keller Nov 11, 2015:

@Björn Ich weiß nicht genau, warum du mir das nun erklärst – vielleicht wusste ich das ja schon? ;-) Ich hatte lediglich einen Satz kommentiert, der IMHO keinen Sinn hat, denn er sagt ja, dass die Lufthansa in der Werbung das Wort Upgrading deswegen nicht benutzen sollte, weil es de facto um ein Upselling geht.

Wie man Upselling im Kontext der Frage übersetzen könnte oder sollte, darüber habe ich kein Wort gesagt.

dkfmmuc Nov 11, 2015:

@Rolf: Danke für die Erläuterungen Wahrscheinlich habe ich beim Lufthansa-Beispiel eine Wahrnehmungsverzerrung. Ich sehe einen "Upgrade" entweder bei Überbuchung oder als Good Will für eine frühere berechtigte Kundenbeschwerde. Von dem sollte man irgendwie das bezahlte Höherstufen trennen.

Ich sehe also keinen Widerspruch in Upselling und dies dann als mehr Komfort zum kleinen Preis zu verkaufen. Im Sinne einer Preiswahrheit und -klarheit würde ich ganz persönlich den Begriff Upgrade wo möglich vermeiden.

Björn Vrooman Nov 11, 2015:

@Rolf This does not negate the fact that the German Upsell includes "höherwertig" and the English one does not. If that were the case, you would not need explanations like this:
"For many of us, it might bring up images of sleazy salespeople trying to line their pockets by selling us extra stuff we don’t need.
And, unfortunately, sometimes that does happen.
Anyone who’s spent time buying a car from a dealership can attest to that.
(I once had a dealer try to sell me an $85 car wash on a brand new car. I wish I was joking.)
But when used properly, upselling can actually bring you closer to your customers, while bringing you more revenue, better retention and lower churn."
https://www.groovehq.com/support/upsells

Exactly because this document is targeted at salespeople, talking about "höherwertig," while you just want to make more money is for naught and I think "Mehrumsatz zu generieren" is a nicely neutral suggestion.

Rolf Keller Nov 11, 2015:

@dkfmmuc "So spricht leider die Lufthansa bei einem neuen Angebot von "Upgrading", obwohl es eigentlich ein Upselling gegen Zahlungsmitteläquivalent oder Bezahlung sein sollte:"

Oh, oh, hast du den Kontext übersehen? Der Referenztext, den du angibst, ist doch ein Werbetext. Würdest du in so einem Text anklingen lassen, dass du dem Kunden "noch etwas mehr andrehen" willst? Sicher nicht, deswegen steht da "Mehr Komfort zum kleinen Preis" in der Überschrift und nicht "Kaufen Sie noch mehr bei uns!"

Der Text in der Frage richtet sich aber nicht an Kunden, sondern an Verkäufer. Die wissen, was Upselling ist, dass man dieses Wort gegenüber den Kunden aber nicht in den Mund nimmt. "Darf's etwas mehr sein?" gab es früher im Tante-Emma-Laden an der Wursttheke. Heutzutage sagt die Nachfolgerin von Emma: "Gut, 250 Gramm Gehacktes. Wir haben heute übrigens feine Leberwurst im Angebot". Tempora mutantur.

dkfmmuc Nov 11, 2015:

Der Begriff Upselling ist leider in der deutschen Terminologie auch nicht wirklich eingeführt. So spricht leider die Lufthansa bei einem neuen Angebot von "Upgrading", obwohl es eigentlich ein Upselling gegen Zahlungsmitteläquivalent oder Bezahlung sein sollte:

Deutsch:
http://www.lufthansa.com/online/portal/lh/de/informationserv...
Die englischsprachige Fassung spricht seltsamerweise auch von Upgrade, obwohl es ein Upselling ist.

Dies beeinflusst auch die Wahrnehmung ins Negative. Es sieht aus, als ob der Kunde etwas umsonst bekommen hätte - er hat es aber bezahlt.

Vielleicht findet ja jemand noch einen perfekten Begriff für den von aykon angefragten Zusammenhang.

Björn Vrooman Nov 10, 2015:

PS Also:
"A sales strategy where the seller will provide opportunities to purchase related products or services, often for the sole purpose of making a larger sale. A popular example of upselling happens when a fast-food customer orders a hamburger, and they are asked by their cashier “Do you want fries with that?”, in an attempt to get them to purchase more food."
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/upselling.html

In essence: "aus etwas mehr Kapital zu schlagen."

That the German Wiki link and the Gabler Wirtschaftslexikon say something about "höherwertig" should point you to a difference in the understanding of the German and English approach.

That is normal in marketing: English words are being used for things that do not cover the same in English as they do in German. I had this myself in some translations. You need to be really careful here not to equate things that aren't equal.

Björn Vrooman Nov 10, 2015:

"Wird mir da unterstellt, dass ich mich selbst eine Vokabel frage?" - Yes, that is actually quite a serious accusation that I don't understand either.

Besides, @Doreen and @Eckehard, while the old link is good to read through, the glossary entry seems wrong, which happens quite often here actually.

Let me sum it up:
The asker says: "Habe mich aber doch für einen deutschen Begriff entschieden (Verkaufsförderung), der Andreas' Vorschlag ähnlich war."
-> Asker basically says her term is not the same as the one in the answer.

In the discussion, Elisabeth (who says she's "on the Board of Examiners for Marketing und Kommunikationsfachwirt") states that upsell "bedeutet NICHT ein höherwertiges Produkt zu verkaufen."

Your own link contradicts "höherwertig":
"The practice of offering customers additional or more expensive products or services after they have already agreed to buy something."

That is not a plus in quality!

Rolf Keller Nov 10, 2015:

PayTV-Kanäle? Laut Frage ist das Unternehmen ein "mobile phone/internet provider", da würde ich bei "neuen digitalen Kanälen" zunächst mal an neue technische Kommunikationskanäle/Möglichkeiten denken, beim Surfen z. B. LTE oder per WLAN to Go und beim Telefonieren z. B. WLAN oder VoIP.

dkfmmuc Nov 10, 2015:

Schon seit Jahren "doing business as" dkfmmuc wie man so schön sagt. Und damit ungleich aykon. Frage mich gerade: Was soll das? Wird mir da unterstellt, dass ich mich selbst eine Vokabel frage?

Lesebestätigung, ein weiterer Kommentar wäre nicht hilfreich für die Übersetzer-Gemeinde.

BrigitteHilgner Nov 10, 2015:

@dkfmmuc Bringe ich da etwas durcheinander?
Ist aykon = dkfmmuc?
Falls ja, bitte ich um Entschuldigung - angesichts der vielen Leute, die hier mit verdecktem Visier antreten, kann man ja verwirrt werde.
Was den Frager "aykon" betrifft, weise ich auf die Proz.com Site rules hin, insbesondere 2.9 Guidelines:
"Help" KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help after having searched the KudoZ tem search and other resources.
http://www.proz.com/?sp=siterules&mode=show&category=kudoz_a...
Ich habe diese Regeln nicht erlassen. Ja, ich weiß, vermutlich wird ein großer Teil der Fragen in diesem Forum nur gestellt, weil der/die betreffende Frager/Fragerin zu faul zur eigenen Recherche ist - aber das wird mich nicht daran hindern, auf die Regeln hinzuweisen.
Die Motive der Leute, die derartige Fragen beantworten, gehen mich nichts an.

dkfmmuc Nov 10, 2015:

@Brigitte: I think it is everyone's OWN choice to answer a question or try to help a colleague. There could be many reasons for asking this questions. However I haven't done a KudoZ search, assumed the ASKER did one.

BrigitteHilgner Nov 10, 2015:

@asker 8 open questions
23 questions without valid answers
76 questions without grading
obviously (see comment by Eckehard Plöger) no attempt to look at the kudoz glossary (did you look at any other internet sources?)
Could you please tell us why anybody should bother to help you? Thank you.

Doreen Haedicke Nov 10, 2015:

wie bereits von Eckehard verlinkt =Verkauf eines höherwertigen Produkts/Upselling
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/upsell
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upselling

Eckehard Plöger Nov 10, 2015:

See http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_german/it_information_t...