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EN EXCESO DE LA LEY ...
conocer haciendo

Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

vaya en correspondencia con la factura

English translation:

goes in direct relationship/hand in hand with the manufacture ...

Added to glossary by garci
Jan 19, 2007 23:23
17 yrs ago
3 viewers *
Spanish term

vaya en correspondencia con la factura

Spanish to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting Mexico
Mediante el diseño interno —decía Zuccari— se puede conocer todo objeto del mundo, pero es importante que el conocimiento ***vaya en correspondencia con la factura*** del objeto.

I think this means something like "goes hand-in-hand with the making of the object", but that doesn't make much sense (if one knows an object, it implies that it is already made). And does factura mean "manufacturar"?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 goes in direct relationship with the manufacture ...
5 +2 NOT FOR KUDOZ - just to support Garci's answer
4 corresponds with the invoice/cost
5 -1 ... tally with..
4 with the (equals) quality of the resulting object
3 goes hand-in-hand with the value of the object
4 -1 ...is equal to the [material] value of the object
4 -1 (in direct relation, to correspond,to be equivalent) with the object´s made

Discussion

Patricia Rosas (asker) Jan 21, 2007:
THANK YOU ALL!!! I want to thank everyone for taking their precious time on a weekend to join in this discussion. I have learned so much! Your collegiality is invaluable to me...
Patricia Rosas (asker) Jan 21, 2007:
Mauricio: Your "agree comment" to Garci is so helpful. It reflects precisely what I sensing about this sentence, that the "se puede conocer" is talking about "conocimiento "metafísico". Thank you again for the links!
Mauricio Coitiño Jan 21, 2007:
A better one on Zuccari's theories, in Italian: http://www.romecity.it/Federicozuccari.htm
The thesis: http://www.tdx.cesca.es/TESIS_UV/AVAILABLE/TDX-0524105-09464...
Patricia Rosas (asker) Jan 21, 2007:
thanks! Mauricio: Thank you so much for that. Do you have a link to the tesis that you'd share? Although this is only a snippet of what I'm translating, I'd like to read a bit about Zuccari (all I've found is either on his art or is disparaging of his writing). Thx!
Mauricio Coitiño Jan 21, 2007:
De una tesis doctoral en arquitectura: "El dibujo de proyecto, el 'diseño interno' según Zuccari, se refleja en el plano mediante el 'dibujo externo' y se eleva a la categoría de representación gráfica."
Patricia Rosas (asker) Jan 20, 2007:
Luis and Marcelo (Marcelo: have you moved away from Albuquerque? just in time to avoid the snow!): The author is a native speaker of Spanish and a native of Mexico, but I was told that this essay hasn't been edited yet (although several other people have read it). This author writes very freely (I've translated another essay by him). If I find out what he was trying to get across, I'll let you know! Thanks for all the help!
Luis Medina Jan 19, 2007:
Patricia, como decía a Marcelo, me parece extraño que la palabra "factura" aparezca en este contexto. Me da la sensación que el texto no fue originalmente escrito en español. Posiblemente "factura" sea un error de traducción proveniente de otra lengua.
Patricia Rosas (asker) Jan 19, 2007:
not 'invoice' I think ... Here's the sentence preceding this one: Federico Zuccari, un tratadista italiano del siglo XVI planteaba la existencia de un diseño interno en el conocimiento humano, que integra concepto e idea para conocer y obrar.

Proposed translations

+3
1 hr
Selected

goes in direct relationship with the manufacture ...

Mediante el diseño interno —decía Zuccari— se puede conocer todo objeto del mundo, pero es importante que el conocimiento ***vaya en correspondencia con la factura*** del objeto.

Through the inner design - Zuccari sustained - you can know/cognize every object in the world, but it is important that this knowledge/cognition goes in direct relationship with the manufacture of that object.

Pienso que Zuccari , pintor y arquitecto (no sé lo de tratadista) del siglo XVI, podría estarse refiriendo a su actividad, en ambos campos quizá, en tales términos.

Me parece que nada que ver con el valor del objeto de arte, ni mucho menos con invoices. IMHO

Suerte Patricia!
Note from asker:
Lo chistoso de "tratadista" es que el 11o ed. de la Encyclopedia Britannica dice que su libro "is a senseless mass of the of the most turgid bombast"! Muchas gracias, Garci!
Peer comment(s):
agree María Eugenia Wachtendorff : ¡Absolutamente de acuerdo con Patricia y contigo, Garci, pero después de mirar el diccionario! :)
26 mins
Muchas gracias ME y saludos cordiales !!
agree patricia scott
8 hrs
Gracias Patricia !
agree Mauricio Coitiño : Zuccari plantea que el disegno interno es un "concetto formato nella mente per conoscere". El disegno esterno es "quello circoscritto di forma". Entonces, el rol del artista es transformar el conocimiento "metafísico" del objeto en una realidad material.
1 day 15 hrs
Gracias Mauricio ! Como lo comenta Patricia, tu le resolviste el asunto. Saludos !
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Garci--thanks so much for your thoughtful answer. I was debating whether Patricia Scott got it right, but seeing Mauricio's comment above, I believe you're "right on the money" -- "manufacture" is right here because it is talking about making silver items (bowls, soup tureens, etc.) fwiw I think I'll stick with "goes hand in hand with" but I'm going to use "cognition" which solves the problem I had with "knowing" an option (since cognition seems to imply a level of knowing that isn't just a "physical encounter" with an object. THANKS! "
12 mins

corresponds with the invoice/cost

Factura means invoice
Note from asker:
Eileen: I don't think that's possible in this context. I'm going to post the sentence before this one. Please let me know if you still think that "invoice" is right. Thx!
Peer comment(s):
agree Manuel Aburto
14 mins
disagree María Eugenia Wachtendorff : The first meaning for "factura" in DRAE is "acción y efecto de hacer"
1 hr
Something went wrong...
13 mins

goes hand-in-hand with the value of the object

I think that the word "factura" refers to the value of an object. Factura does not mean manufacturar. Una factura es el documento que se entrega al cliente que compra un objeto en el el que se especifíca el valor del mismo, además de otros datos como el nombre del dueño.
Peer comment(s):
agree Marcelo González : I think this is the idea, but I wonder if the author might be interested in emphasing "market value" (hence, factura, instead of using "con su valor" which might be understood as purely esthetic). Saludos desde Huatulco, Luis!
2 mins
Lo extraño que que parace ser un texto muy filosófico sobre arte y el diseño, y la palabra "factura" parace muy mundana para este contexto. Posiblemente el texto no sea originalmente escrito en español. Saludos desde Colima, Marcelo.
disagree María Eugenia Wachtendorff : Hola, Luis. Me he reído mucho. Yo tampoco lo sabía, pero se me ocurrió mirar el Buscón de la RAE
1 hr
Something went wrong...
-1
27 mins

... tally with..

I think this one fits well.
Peer comment(s):
disagree María Eugenia Wachtendorff : Tampoco, Manuel. Hoy TODOS estamos aprendiendo un significado de un término que ni sospechábamos. :)
1 hr
Something went wrong...
-1
1 hr

...is equal to the [material] value of the object

.
Peer comment(s):
disagree María Eugenia Wachtendorff : Sorry, but fair is fair... This time I have to disagree with all my dear colleagues. :)
19 mins
Something went wrong...
-1
3 hrs

(in direct relation, to correspond,to be equivalent) with the object´s made

factura reffers to the time and effort of making something, besides the materials and money costs. So the translation could be "is important that the knowledge to correspond with the object´s made" or any of the other options.

Manufactura means hand made, for example the type of work in an industry

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Note added at 3 horas (2007-01-20 02:57:49 GMT)
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sorry, I meant "is important that knowledge corresponds with the object´s made
Peer comment(s):
disagree María Eugenia Wachtendorff : Tal como Patricia lo entendió: "the making of the item" (yo no diría "object", pero ese no es el tema de la pregunta).
11 hrs
no te preocupes, no me ofendes, al menos ahora das el porqué discrepas y te agradecería mucho que me dijeras cual sería la forma correcta, eso me ayudaría mucho a corregir mis errores. No tengo soberbia, siempre estoy dispuesta a aprender
Something went wrong...
+2
1 hr

NOT FOR KUDOZ - just to support Garci's answer

Patricia, you got it right form the start!

See what RAE says about "factura"

1. f. Acción y efecto de hacer.

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Note added at 15 hrs (2007-01-20 15:06:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You are welcome, Patty This is exactly what I love about Kudoz - the fun we share! ;D

factura = hechura --> the making of

I think the author
Note from asker:
María--What would we do without you? I looked up so many words in the RAE but I guess I didn't look up this one! Thank you and thanks to Garci (and of course, to everyone).
Peer comment(s):
agree garci : Y "ejecutar" hablando de música y pintura, entre otra artes. Saludos afectuosos, MaríaEugenia !
2 hrs
Gracias, Garci
agree Manuel Aburto : Analizandolo bien tienes razón. :)
13 hrs
Muchas gracias, Manuel
Something went wrong...
9 hrs

with the (equals) quality of the resulting object

Factura here is used as final result "Es una pieza de factura impecable"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day17 hrs (2007-01-21 16:31:26 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Tiene lógica que la palabra factura derive de manufactura, quality aquí se refiere a las calidades, características (factura pues) del objeto final.
Note from asker:
Patricia (¡tocaya!): Your point is well taken and I see what you are driving at. But in the larger context (several different paragraphs where the idea of taking the diseeño interno and creating something is discussed, I don't see the connection with the outcome (that is, the characteristics of the final product). A theme in this essay is that one learns by doing, and "becomes intimately acquainted with the language of silver" by doing (even when the attempt is an abject failure). But I will keep your comments in mind and talk it over with the editor and publisher. Much thanks! -- Patricia
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