May 12, 2008 16:34
16 yrs ago
10 viewers *
French term
grenier perdu
French to English
Other
Real Estate
Context is a French property description.
"Au premier il y a 3 chambres dont une avec lavabo, un bureau, salle d'eau, WC, grand couloir avec évier, grenier perdu, cave (160 m²)".
"Au premier il y a 3 chambres dont une avec lavabo, un bureau, salle d'eau, WC, grand couloir avec évier, grenier perdu, cave (160 m²)".
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+4
11 mins
Selected
attic space
I've never really found a satisfactory way of expressing this particualr idea in EN!
As it has been explained to me, it means simply space under the roof that is too small / low etc. to be converted into usable living space — what we would think of us just an 'ordinary' attic in EN.
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Note added at 39 mins (2008-05-12 17:13:55 GMT)
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To pick up the point made earlier by Bourth:
strictly speaking, 'grenier' ought by definition to be 'suitable for conversion', since the term originates from when it was used as a granary to store grain. The correct term for a roof space only suitable for storage purposes is 'combles'.
However, few enough houses these days have a true 'grenier', and the term is often used quite loosely for any sort of attic space; the 'aménageable' may be quite optimistic, it often means little more than that there is some standing headroom.
Notaires and estate agents are often very imprecise in their use of language, and I have found grenier and combles frequently used interchangeably — including such abominations as 'combles aménageables' — a contradiction in terms, literally!
Thank you Bourth for drawing that to our attention!
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Note added at 5 hrs (2008-05-12 22:07:27 GMT)
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If we were to take the totally literal and no doubt technically accurate meaning of this term as being 'wasted space', why would anyone bother to put it into a property description? It would be a pointless waste of space.
I re-iterate, on the basis of my over 10 years' experience of specifically translating property ads / descriptions (and notwithstanding any trades decriptions legislation): the term is very often used (albeit imprecisely) for a uselessly small attic space which might, however, have some storage or similar function. People advertizing properties don't usually waste (even 2) words on things that have absolutely no function whatsoever.
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Note added at 5 hrs (2008-05-12 22:20:40 GMT)
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The 'perdu' refers merely to the fact that the attic space is 'lost' as far as being habitable is concerned (i.e. mainly, having sufficient standing headroom)
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Note added at 5 hrs (2008-05-12 22:27:04 GMT)
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It is not 'recyclable' or 'temporarily unusable' or 'reusable' — the fact that it is 'perdu' implies merely that it is not in any way ever likely to be able to be converted into additional living accommodation, and is destined forever to be used (at best) as a glory-hole for assorted old junk.
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Note added at 14 hrs (2008-05-13 06:59:11 GMT)
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Despite Eric's insistence on the strict techincal definition of this term, I have been unable to find in a quick search any 'official' explanation of it; however, it is clear that:
a) it is used an awful lot in property adverts, to an extent that would be surprising if it only mean 'wasted space'
b) the few discussions I have found using it more technically generally make a clear distinction between 'combles / grenier aménageable' and 'perdu', which tends to confirm the fact that 'perdu' means definitely NOT 'habitable' — but I have so far found no concrete evidence to suggest that it equally means 'inaccessible' or 'unusable for any other purpose'
I think this is a cultural thing, to do with the way the FR regard attic space, compared with the EN.
I was once told that the word 'loft' made the distinction between habitable/not compared with 'attic' — has anyone else got any ideas on this point?
As it has been explained to me, it means simply space under the roof that is too small / low etc. to be converted into usable living space — what we would think of us just an 'ordinary' attic in EN.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 39 mins (2008-05-12 17:13:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
To pick up the point made earlier by Bourth:
strictly speaking, 'grenier' ought by definition to be 'suitable for conversion', since the term originates from when it was used as a granary to store grain. The correct term for a roof space only suitable for storage purposes is 'combles'.
However, few enough houses these days have a true 'grenier', and the term is often used quite loosely for any sort of attic space; the 'aménageable' may be quite optimistic, it often means little more than that there is some standing headroom.
Notaires and estate agents are often very imprecise in their use of language, and I have found grenier and combles frequently used interchangeably — including such abominations as 'combles aménageables' — a contradiction in terms, literally!
Thank you Bourth for drawing that to our attention!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2008-05-12 22:07:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
If we were to take the totally literal and no doubt technically accurate meaning of this term as being 'wasted space', why would anyone bother to put it into a property description? It would be a pointless waste of space.
I re-iterate, on the basis of my over 10 years' experience of specifically translating property ads / descriptions (and notwithstanding any trades decriptions legislation): the term is very often used (albeit imprecisely) for a uselessly small attic space which might, however, have some storage or similar function. People advertizing properties don't usually waste (even 2) words on things that have absolutely no function whatsoever.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2008-05-12 22:20:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The 'perdu' refers merely to the fact that the attic space is 'lost' as far as being habitable is concerned (i.e. mainly, having sufficient standing headroom)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2008-05-12 22:27:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
It is not 'recyclable' or 'temporarily unusable' or 'reusable' — the fact that it is 'perdu' implies merely that it is not in any way ever likely to be able to be converted into additional living accommodation, and is destined forever to be used (at best) as a glory-hole for assorted old junk.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2008-05-13 06:59:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Despite Eric's insistence on the strict techincal definition of this term, I have been unable to find in a quick search any 'official' explanation of it; however, it is clear that:
a) it is used an awful lot in property adverts, to an extent that would be surprising if it only mean 'wasted space'
b) the few discussions I have found using it more technically generally make a clear distinction between 'combles / grenier aménageable' and 'perdu', which tends to confirm the fact that 'perdu' means definitely NOT 'habitable' — but I have so far found no concrete evidence to suggest that it equally means 'inaccessible' or 'unusable for any other purpose'
I think this is a cultural thing, to do with the way the FR regard attic space, compared with the EN.
I was once told that the word 'loft' made the distinction between habitable/not compared with 'attic' — has anyone else got any ideas on this point?
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Many thanks to everyone who answered and/or commented, making this a much more interesting question than I imagined it would be."
11 mins
attic suitable for conversion
I think a "grenier perdu" is contrasted with a "grenier aménageable" which is an attic space that is suitable for conversion into living quarters.
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Note added at 12 mins (2008-05-12 16:47:01 GMT)
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sorry - that should be "attic not suitable for conversion"
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Note added at 17 mins (2008-05-12 16:51:56 GMT)
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but isn't the French idea negative?
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Note added at 12 mins (2008-05-12 16:47:01 GMT)
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sorry - that should be "attic not suitable for conversion"
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Note added at 17 mins (2008-05-12 16:51:56 GMT)
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but isn't the French idea negative?
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Tony M
: Yes, but that sort of negative idea is unsuitable for use in a property description / No, not per se: they don't say 'non-aménageable', for example / Yes, me too!
2 mins
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point taken - I think attic storage is a good way of getting around this.
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41 mins
unusable attic
Hello,
This is my understanding. It's literally "lost" in the sense that it can't be used. It would have to be redone in order to be used.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2008-05-12 20:48:07 GMT)
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You could say "attic unusable as is" to make it sound less negative.
perdu = unusable (there's no way around it)
This is my understanding. It's literally "lost" in the sense that it can't be used. It would have to be redone in order to be used.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2008-05-12 20:48:07 GMT)
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You could say "attic unusable as is" to make it sound less negative.
perdu = unusable (there's no way around it)
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Tony M
: For one thing, that is again far too negative for the register of a property description; furthermore, it may be that this attic never was, or never could be, habitable, though it might be perfectly usable for other purposes (like storage...)
3 mins
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I disagree Tony. This is the idea, no matter how negative it may sound. There may be a way to make it sound a little less negative, but property descriptions have to be somewhat truthful, right? LOL I mean you can always convert or remodel this attic.
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| neutral |
Carol Gullidge
: agree with Tony: "unusable", if correct, would be far too honest for estate agent's blurb!//You have to be very creative!
4 hrs
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Well, I disagree with you and Tony both. The meaning is that the space can't be used. How do propose we say that in English then?
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| agree |
Eric BILLY
: by definition your proposal is the closest to the meaning, eventhough Tony is right, it might be too negative for a house description
11 hrs
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Thanks, Eric! Who says that property descriptions always have to be extremely positive? The truth is the truth. LOL Perhaps, you could make it less negative by saying "attic unusuable as is". That, at least, shows potential.
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14 hrs
Mary Carroll Richer LaFlèche
Italy
Italy
Native in French
&
English
Works in field
Italy
work, work, work!!
Native in: English 
, French
Works in: Italian to English, Italian to French, French to English, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
8
false ceiling
maybe it should translated as 'false ceiling' if it is only a space between the ceiling and the roof.....an attic has a storage purpose, if not, it isn't an attic
+9
1 hr
Create a new box then
If the Ask the Asker box is not to be used as it often is, then create a special box where people can make observations (pertinent, hopefully) without running the "risk" of being attributed points, despite ample warnings like "comment only" and "NFG" !!!
As it happens, when I do wish - read, "feel it necessary or helpful, or even humorous" - to make a comment that is going to be longer than the space available in the Ask the Asker box, I will open an "Answer" for that purpose - and end up getting points when someone else was in my opinion more legitimately entitled to them.
If this place is to be a full and comprehensive tool for translators, it needs discussion, explanation, and contribution space, not just "glossary entries" (which need an AWFUL lot of tidying up in any case!).
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Note added at 15 hrs (2008-05-13 08:24:52 GMT)
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For the disbelievers (re. the meaning of "perdu"):
Dicobat says:
COMBLE
Superstructure d'un bâtiment, qui comprend sa charpente et sa couverture.
AU PLURIEL, les combles désignent le volume compris entre le plancher haut et la toiture d'un bâtiment. Etage supérieur d'un bâtiment, correspondant à ce volume. GB:attic, loft, roof space.
Des combles sont dits PERDUS (GB: non [sic] suitable for conversion si la hauteur ou l'encombrement des charpentes ne permettent pas d'envisager un aménagement ; ou au contraire AMENAGEABLES (gb:suitable for conversion), si on peut y établir des locaux d'habitation.
Note however that even combles perdus for because of "encombrement" (roof framing, trusses, etc. all over the show) CAN be converted (at more or less great expense) by replacing the supporting structures with something that frees up the space. I'm always saddened when I see "little boxy" new houses going up with dozens of lightweight roof trusses, imagining the disappointment of the people having them built when they move in and discover there's nothing they can do up under the roof.
As it happens, when I do wish - read, "feel it necessary or helpful, or even humorous" - to make a comment that is going to be longer than the space available in the Ask the Asker box, I will open an "Answer" for that purpose - and end up getting points when someone else was in my opinion more legitimately entitled to them.
If this place is to be a full and comprehensive tool for translators, it needs discussion, explanation, and contribution space, not just "glossary entries" (which need an AWFUL lot of tidying up in any case!).
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs (2008-05-13 08:24:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
For the disbelievers (re. the meaning of "perdu"):
Dicobat says:
COMBLE
Superstructure d'un bâtiment, qui comprend sa charpente et sa couverture.
AU PLURIEL, les combles désignent le volume compris entre le plancher haut et la toiture d'un bâtiment. Etage supérieur d'un bâtiment, correspondant à ce volume. GB:attic, loft, roof space.
Des combles sont dits PERDUS (GB: non [sic] suitable for conversion si la hauteur ou l'encombrement des charpentes ne permettent pas d'envisager un aménagement ; ou au contraire AMENAGEABLES (gb:suitable for conversion), si on peut y établir des locaux d'habitation.
Note however that even combles perdus for because of "encombrement" (roof framing, trusses, etc. all over the show) CAN be converted (at more or less great expense) by replacing the supporting structures with something that frees up the space. I'm always saddened when I see "little boxy" new houses going up with dozens of lightweight roof trusses, imagining the disappointment of the people having them built when they move in and discover there's nothing they can do up under the roof.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Tony M
: Hear, hear! Couldn't agree more. It irks me to see the over-zealous application of certain rules, and the flagrant disregard for certain others... There's a dire need for the ATA box to be re-named 'comments on the question' (as on a certain rival site)
1 hr
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Wow! Thanks to all for the hearty support! I had visions of myself being flung out of this place for "answering back", but with the whole class behind me I might get to just wear the dunce's cap!
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| agree |
Jonathan MacKerron
: a good example of the reigning Zeitgeist of the Proz powers that be
1 hr
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| agree |
Emma Paulay
: Well said (but asker, PLEASE don't give him any more points) ;-)
2 hrs
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| agree |
MatthewLaSon
: I agree, Bourth. I feel that I can never make my point. I enjoy linguistics a lot and often feel that the asker is not reading my analyses. So, that's why I post so much in the Asker Section. I spend a lot of time answering questions.
3 hrs
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: Absolutely agree! I have even seen occasions lately where "moderators" have WIPED OUT totally valid and helpful comments in their quest for 100% compliance with the rules. WHY, I ask?
7 hrs
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| agree |
Mary Carroll Richer LaFlèche
: I absolutely agree, you can often help with little hints and suggestions..and some people disagree too much....and need to be told they are not teachers in a class...
12 hrs
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| agree |
Carol Gullidge
: Agree! Space is needed for all these comments, and you can wear your dunce's cap with pride!
15 hrs
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| agree |
Gayle Wallimann
: DEfinitely agree that a new box should be created for discussion. It is apparently on a "to-do" list for the site, and has been for a long time. Please request it in the forum for site suggestions, we need it badly!
22 hrs
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| agree |
Martin Cassell
: [Long after event] Well said!! Excellent point, now finally met -- but I note you have been conspicuously absent on the forum to discuss the changes http://www.proz.com/topic/112294 , where more voices of sanity would be welcome ...
93 days
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16 hrs
Carol Gullidge
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
poetically precise prose with... panache
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
12
French term (edited):
grenier perdu (NFG)
(unused) rafter space; (ie, be creative!) OR omit (see below)
As Tony says, no English estate agent would consider it even worth mentioning something that really was "unusable", however accurate that may be. What purchasor wants to get lumbered with something they can't put to some use?
However, most estate agents worth their salt would come up with some inventive possibility for potential use, however far fetched. For example, rafter space is used for insulation purposes. You insulate the (otherwise unusable) loft, and hey presto, the house is warmer, cheaper to run, and you've put that rafter space to good use whilst increasing the value of the property! Of course, if it's already insulated, then instead of calling it "unusable" you capitalise on the insulation factor ("insulated loft" instead of "unusable loft")
And I do find it hard to conceive of the idea of any space that can't be put to some use or other! Perhaps I was spoilt by years of selling properties in Western France, nearly all of which had a loft/barn/shed/attic/lean-to that was convertible to something, even if just for storage space!
A few hits (of many) for "rafter space" - which doesn't make any claims as such
However, most estate agents worth their salt would come up with some inventive possibility for potential use, however far fetched. For example, rafter space is used for insulation purposes. You insulate the (otherwise unusable) loft, and hey presto, the house is warmer, cheaper to run, and you've put that rafter space to good use whilst increasing the value of the property! Of course, if it's already insulated, then instead of calling it "unusable" you capitalise on the insulation factor ("insulated loft" instead of "unusable loft")
And I do find it hard to conceive of the idea of any space that can't be put to some use or other! Perhaps I was spoilt by years of selling properties in Western France, nearly all of which had a loft/barn/shed/attic/lean-to that was convertible to something, even if just for storage space!
A few hits (of many) for "rafter space" - which doesn't make any claims as such
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