Nov 12, 2019 16:12
4 yrs ago
10 viewers *
French term
professions supérieures
French to English
Social Sciences
Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc.
catégories socioprofessionnelles
Au-delà de la faible représentation des plus jeunes, les principaux écarts entre les connaisseurs de Gallica et la population française portent sur les études longues, les professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures et la consommation de livres et d’activités culturelles, toutes mieux représentées que dans la moyenne française, comme l’a montré une récente étude de l’Ifop (Ifop, 2018).
I'm not sure that English-speaking countries share the same concept of 'professions supérieures' and 'catégories socioprofessionnelles'?
Here's my attempt so far:
In addition to the low representation of young people, the main differences between Gallica users and the general French population reside in attainment of higher education and more highly skilled jobs and socio-occupational categories, and consumption of books and cultural activities, which are all better represented than in the general population, as shown by a recent Ifop study (Ifop 2018).
I'm not sure that English-speaking countries share the same concept of 'professions supérieures' and 'catégories socioprofessionnelles'?
Here's my attempt so far:
In addition to the low representation of young people, the main differences between Gallica users and the general French population reside in attainment of higher education and more highly skilled jobs and socio-occupational categories, and consumption of books and cultural activities, which are all better represented than in the general population, as shown by a recent Ifop study (Ifop 2018).
Proposed translations
(English)
4 +1 | Access to the professions | Lara Barnett |
4 +1 | higher occupational social class categories | B D Finch |
4 | more skilled jobs | philgoddard |
References
PCS in France | Wolf Draeger |
Proposed translations
+1
7 mins
Selected
Access to the professions
We call the more high-profile, more demanding and traditional occupations "the professions".
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Note added at 11 mins (2019-11-12 16:23:56 GMT)
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"The 5 traditional professions are architecture, clergy, engineering, law and medicine. Law and medicine are traditionally considered to be the more elite of them."
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-professions
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Note added at 18 mins (2019-11-12 16:30:43 GMT)
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"...,prescence in the professions"
Or
"... access to the professions"
Your question states "professions supérieures", but the paragraph posted only says "professions". My answer has taken account of the adjective you used.
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Note added at 15 hrs (2019-11-13 07:32:52 GMT)
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"So while MEMBERS OF THE PROFESSIONS have long regarded themselves as different (by which they probably mean 'better') from those without letters after their name, it is becoming ever less clear exactly how they are different.
In short, just what is it that the PROFESSIONS actually profess about themselves that their prospective clients and society should value?"
https://www.managementtoday.co.uk/why-professions-pulled-ped...
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Note added at 11 mins (2019-11-12 16:23:56 GMT)
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"The 5 traditional professions are architecture, clergy, engineering, law and medicine. Law and medicine are traditionally considered to be the more elite of them."
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-professions
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Note added at 18 mins (2019-11-12 16:30:43 GMT)
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"...,prescence in the professions"
Or
"... access to the professions"
Your question states "professions supérieures", but the paragraph posted only says "professions". My answer has taken account of the adjective you used.
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Note added at 15 hrs (2019-11-13 07:32:52 GMT)
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"So while MEMBERS OF THE PROFESSIONS have long regarded themselves as different (by which they probably mean 'better') from those without letters after their name, it is becoming ever less clear exactly how they are different.
In short, just what is it that the PROFESSIONS actually profess about themselves that their prospective clients and society should value?"
https://www.managementtoday.co.uk/why-professions-pulled-ped...
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Ph_B (X)
: with "members of the professions". Not for me to say how it can be used in the sentence, but "members of the profession" could be part of the solution.
15 hrs
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Thank you.
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neutral |
Gordon Matthews
: I would probably translate "professions superieure" as "professional occupations". I don't read "access to" in either of the two words, "professions" and "superieure".
17 hrs
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"access to" or "presence in" is intended to help integrate the term into the sentence structure - you need to read the whole source sentence.....!
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neutral |
philgoddard
: It doesn't say "access to".
21 hrs
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No, it certainly doesn't say that. I was trying to help the asker fit the time into her structure. I Hope that can be forgiven..
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3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks a lot for your help"
20 mins
more skilled jobs
It doesn't say "professions supérieures" as such - it's "professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures", which is a very roundabout way of saying that they have more skilled jobs. I think you should take the jargon out and use plain English.
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Note added at 42 mins (2019-11-12 16:54:18 GMT)
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Or more skilled professions.
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Note added at 42 mins (2019-11-12 16:54:18 GMT)
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Or more skilled professions.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Tony M
: I don't agree, Phil: because of the different way FR uses 'professions', they would not use it in this doublet without including it in the qualification, so it is for sure 'professions supérieures' AND 'catégories socioprofessionelles supérieures.
11 mins
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It's clumsy repetition to say "professions and socioprofessional categories". They both mean the same thing, which is how you earn a living.
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disagree |
Daryo
: just because for you "it's all the same" doesn't make it "all the same".// to give you an example from a different field: 3 and 3.0 and 3.00 may seem "all the same" to you but they ARE NOT.
8 hrs
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I didn't say anything about numbers being all the same. What are you talking about?
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neutral |
B D Finch
: It's about socio-economic class/status, which can't be reduced to "more skilled jobs".
22 hrs
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agree |
Wolf Draeger
: Or "highly skilled"? But yes, "skills" is the most straightforward way to say it.
22 hrs
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Thanks!
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+1
19 hrs
French term (edited):
catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures
higher occupational social class categories
See my discussion post re the inconsistency between the text you quote and the header term you posted for your question.
https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/23394892
A Domingo-Salvany, A Bacigalupe, JM Carrasco… - Gaceta …, 2013 - europepmc.org
… This article presents two proposals to measure social class: the new classification of occupational
social class (CSO-SEE12), based on the CNO-2011 … The proposed CSO-SEE12 consists of seven
classes that can be grouped into a smaller number of categories according to …
https://jech.bmj.com/content/59/10/898.short
GD Batty, DA Lawlor, S Macintyre, H Clark… - … of Epidemiology & …, 2005 - jech.bmj.com
… on an ordinal scale. 34 Linear weights were calculated as w i = 1-(i/5), where w i
is the weight given for a distance of i categories between the two measurements
of occupational social class. Using the original six occupational …
For the new European occupational social class categories see https://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/archives/esec/user-guide/the-eu...
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Note added at 22 hrs (2019-11-13 14:33:26 GMT)
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Note that your text does not apply the adjective "supérieures" to "professions" (which, by definition, fall within the "catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures"). So, "les professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures" would be
The professions and higher occupational social class categories.
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Note added at 22 hrs (2019-11-13 14:50:17 GMT)
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Sorry, I was wrong and the text does apply the adjective "supérieures" to "professions" too. Indeed that is the only justification for translating that as "professions" in English. Though, in English, the adjective "higher" shouldn't then apply to the noun "professions".
https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/23394892
A Domingo-Salvany, A Bacigalupe, JM Carrasco… - Gaceta …, 2013 - europepmc.org
… This article presents two proposals to measure social class: the new classification of occupational
social class (CSO-SEE12), based on the CNO-2011 … The proposed CSO-SEE12 consists of seven
classes that can be grouped into a smaller number of categories according to …
https://jech.bmj.com/content/59/10/898.short
GD Batty, DA Lawlor, S Macintyre, H Clark… - … of Epidemiology & …, 2005 - jech.bmj.com
… on an ordinal scale. 34 Linear weights were calculated as w i = 1-(i/5), where w i
is the weight given for a distance of i categories between the two measurements
of occupational social class. Using the original six occupational …
For the new European occupational social class categories see https://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/archives/esec/user-guide/the-eu...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2019-11-13 14:33:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Note that your text does not apply the adjective "supérieures" to "professions" (which, by definition, fall within the "catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures"). So, "les professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures" would be
The professions and higher occupational social class categories.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2019-11-13 14:50:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Sorry, I was wrong and the text does apply the adjective "supérieures" to "professions" too. Indeed that is the only justification for translating that as "professions" in English. Though, in English, the adjective "higher" shouldn't then apply to the noun "professions".
Reference:
https://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/archives/esec/user-guide/the-european-socio-economic-classification
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Ph_B (X)
: with your 2nd note added at 22hrs:"professions" = professions supérieures. "(members of the) professions and (of the) higher occupational categories"?/Only suggested to take into account connaisseurs (="persons"). And it's Ph_B, please :-)
19 hrs
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Thanks Ph_B. There is no need for the addition of the words you have put in brackets in your suggestion. However, it is essential to include the social aspect of "socioprofessionnelles".// Sorry for blowing your cover: now corrected!
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Reference comments
33 mins
Reference:
PCS in France
From Insee:
Catégorie socioprofessionnelle agrégée 3 : Cadres et professions intellectuelles supérieures
Cette catégorie regroupe des professeurs et professions scientifiques salariés qui appliquent directement des connaissances très approfondies dans les domaines des sciences exactes ou humaines à des activités d'intérêt général de recherche, d'enseignement ou de santé. Des professionnels de l'information des arts et des spectacles dont l'activité est liée aux arts et aux médias. Des cadres administratifs et commerciaux d'entreprise, salariés qui ont des responsabilités importantes dans la gestion des entreprises. Des ingénieurs et cadres techniques d'entreprise, salariés exerçant des fonctions de responsabilité qui nécessitent des connaissances scientifiques approfondies.
Catégorie socioprofessionnelle agrégée 3 : Cadres et professions intellectuelles supérieures
Cette catégorie regroupe des professeurs et professions scientifiques salariés qui appliquent directement des connaissances très approfondies dans les domaines des sciences exactes ou humaines à des activités d'intérêt général de recherche, d'enseignement ou de santé. Des professionnels de l'information des arts et des spectacles dont l'activité est liée aux arts et aux médias. Des cadres administratifs et commerciaux d'entreprise, salariés qui ont des responsabilités importantes dans la gestion des entreprises. Des ingénieurs et cadres techniques d'entreprise, salariés exerçant des fonctions de responsabilité qui nécessitent des connaissances scientifiques approfondies.
Reference:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professions_et_cat%C3%A9gories_socioprofessionnelles_en_France
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
Ph_B (X)
1 hr
|
agree |
Cyril Tollari
5 hrs
|
agree |
Daryo
10 hrs
|
agree |
B D Finch
18 hrs
|
agree |
Tony M
19 hrs
|
Discussion
I really think socioprofessional/occupational creates more problems than it solves and that it's best translated by the common thread of intellectuelles (with supérieures a red herring). How about "knowledge" ("knowledge workers", "knowledge economy")? Not 100% accurate, but close enough?
The higher social status of such workers, real or imagined, seems to me implicit enough in combinations with "knowledge", especially if the text discusses knowledge-based power structures and imbalances.
It's been fun, good luck!
(I think 'representation' is in keeping with the academic register.)
Bring out your red markers! ;-)
I'm retaining 'the low representation of young people' at the beginning of the sentence because it refers back to the last point made in the article, and thus ending with the reference to the Ifop study. I liked the way you switched the sentence around, @Wolf; but I found it better suited to a journalistic style. What I have preserves the weighty tone of the overall article.
Am I understanding the objection correctly?"
A. Yes. However, you have the benefit of seeing the whole text and can judge whether it is OK to broaden the category to include those who have access to education and jobs, whether or not they have already taken advantage of that.
I also think that Wolf is mistaken to omit the "socio" as, by doing so, it omits the criterion of social status. People's behaviour is influenced not only by their education and the requirements of their jobs, but by the social expectations that their education and jobs entail.
My attempt tidies up the repetitions in the FR and loses any connotations of unfair or unequal gaps. Perhaps it takes too many liberties, but that would be my starting point.
Is your point the difference between saying that these people SIMPLY HAVE ACCESS to the education and the jobs & saying that they ACTUALLY HAVE the education and the jobs?
Am I understanding the objection correctly?
@Asker Agree 100%. My apologies if my comments have come across as haughty or uncivil.
"...les principaux écarts entre les connaisseurs de Gallica et la population française portent sur les études longues, les professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures et la consommation..."
?
I like "access to" because this is the idea behind the original: that Gallica users stand out from the general population of French people owing to their access to better education and jobs. I can't think of a better way of phrasing it right now.
There is no neat, concise way of putting it in EN without an explanation, so you have to sacrifice some accuracy for the sake of clarity (or vice versa depending on your point of view), but either way the translation has to make sense to someone not familiar with the French system.
Au-delà de la faible représentation des plus jeunes, les principaux écarts entre les connaisseurs de Gallica et la population française portent sur les études longues, les professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures et la consommation de livres et d’activités culturelles, toutes mieux représentées que dans la moyenne française, comme l’a montré une récente étude de l’Ifop.
Apart from the low representation of young people, Gallica users stand out from the general French population in their access to post-graduate education, the professions, and higher socio-occupational categories, and in their consumption of books and cultural activities, as shown by a recent Ifop study.
"SOCIOPROFESSIONNEL, SOCIOPROFESSIONNEL, -ELLE, adj.
"Qui concerne à la fois l'appartenance sociale et la vie professionnelle. Catégories socioprofessionnelles. Catégories d'une population selon ses caractéristiques sociales et professionnelles. La brutalité des conséquences qu'une opération de réunion peut avoir sur le niveau des charges de fiscalité directe intéressant tel ou tel groupe socio-professionnel (Belorgey, Gouvern. et admin. Fr., 1967, p. 286).Un échantillon représentatif de toute la population française âgée de 15 à 29 ans. C'est-à-dire de toutes les catégories socioprofessionnelles: ouvriers, agriculteurs, employés, étudiants, etc. (L'Express, 17 févr. 1969, p. 119, col. 2).
Prononc. et Orth.: [sɔsjopʀ ɔfεsjɔnεl]. V. socio-. Étymol. et Hist. 1958 (Romeuf t. 2). Formé de l'élém. socio-* et de professionnel*. Bbg. Blochw.-Runk. 1971, p. 218. − Vincent 1983."
They think it's an adjective and, though Larousse thinks it can also be a noun, if it were a noun here, it would not be feminine plural. However, "catégories socioprofessionnelles" can be understood as a compound noun composed of a noun and an adjective.
And to answer a point made by Phil: there is indeed an important difference that must be retained between 'professions supérieures' and 'catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures' — this is not redundancy!
"I'm afraid that using professions on its own would be meaningless here (it just means "occupation" in French, nothing else)" - Yes, absolutely. "[W]hile it is quite possible to have catégories socioprofessionnelles on its own. It is quite possible, grammatically, for supérieures to refer to both terms" - No, it isn't, because that would result in one adjective qualifying the previous adjective "socioprofessionnelles" instead of the noun "catégories".
Where I come from "well educated" means (or at least is used to mean) that you have literally been through a good education, it is certainly not limited to simply "general knowledge". On the other hand "Highly" is a stronger more emphatic word, so may risk sounding a bit sarcastic at times.
Obviously, words can simply be a subjective choice, but I am recalling my experience of nuance/connotation/usage.
So, a well educated person knows a little about everything (and might have a bunch of qualifications) while a highly educated person knows everything about a little (and almost certainly has one or more Masters or PhDs in that field).
But agree not worth splitting hairs over, I wouldn't insist on one or the other :-)
'profession supérieures' is really what we would call 'the professions' in EN (doctor, lwayer, architect, etc.) — the other 'professions' are really what we would call 'job' or 'trade'.
'socio-professional categories' is very much a concept used in EN too, as a quick Google search will quickly show.