| Stran v tématu: < [1 2 3 4] > | A majority of Chinese speakers today find it hard to write their mother tongue
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| | | There's still ambiguity in Japanese and it has not been mentioned before... | Aug 15, 2013 |
Regarding the written form of Japanese, there is some point that has not been discussed yet.
Japanese has also a huge amount of words that have the same pronunciation and different written forms (just use a Japanese dictionary to check that this is an undeniable truth). So, as far as I can tell, using the kana alphabets are OK if you want to write a colloquial or informal conversation (books for little children, for example, are written using kana and an occasional kanji, but still ... See more Regarding the written form of Japanese, there is some point that has not been discussed yet.
Japanese has also a huge amount of words that have the same pronunciation and different written forms (just use a Japanese dictionary to check that this is an undeniable truth). So, as far as I can tell, using the kana alphabets are OK if you want to write a colloquial or informal conversation (books for little children, for example, are written using kana and an occasional kanji, but still it is a limited vocabulary) but there's still the possibility that the text becomes ambiguous, the reader gets confused... The only possibility in that case is using kanji to avoid ambiguity.
Let's imagine a case: a patent with two recurrent, frequently repeated words that are written the same way using kana and have different meanings. Not to mention that it is a formal text written by an adult scientist or inventor who wants that his/her text is clearly understood without ambiguity. In this case the writer wouldn't use kana to write those words, he would be using kanji to avoid misunderstandings... Not to mention that he would write the patent using surely a computer, as we live in an IT-driven world. We can imagine this inventor or scientist having problems handwriting kanji as well as any other Japanese citizen (this was a point of discussion at the beginning of the thread that seems to have been dropped).
So, what's your opinion about this? Should Japanese try harder to remember and recall the way all kanji are written or it is already a different age where IT-devices (computers, smartphones, etc.) make this an unnecessary task?
[Edited at 2013-08-15 14:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Gosh, how we have diverged from the original topic.
I can't comment on how native Japanese speakers feel, but as a non-native speaker I frequently do have trouble understanding what is being said without kanji - particularly when entering a conversation midway. In fact, take a look at Japanese television programs - kanji all over the place! I think the Japanese themselves understand that kanji are an integral part of an unambiguous understanding of the language. I assume a Japanese... See more Gosh, how we have diverged from the original topic.
I can't comment on how native Japanese speakers feel, but as a non-native speaker I frequently do have trouble understanding what is being said without kanji - particularly when entering a conversation midway. In fact, take a look at Japanese television programs - kanji all over the place! I think the Japanese themselves understand that kanji are an integral part of an unambiguous understanding of the language. I assume a Japanese person would have far less difficulty with this a lot of the time simply because there are cultural and environmental cues that make it clear what is being discussed. Still, the level of spoken Japanese one is able to reach without being able to read kanji is probably quite limited.
Of course, I focused on learning the kanji intensely, rather than learning to speak the language first (because when I started learning Japanese back in the Noughties, I had no access to personal tutors here) so this may have coloured my opinion.
I have also frequently encountered combinations of kanji that I can understand but not pronounce without external help. There are also an insane amount of synonyms (not to mention regional variations and interpretations of meaning that are subject to what can only be described as poetic licence) and some of them have the same pronunciation but are written differently. This doesn't even cover slang, in which case very often the *wrong* kanji readings and pronunciations are used to create new ones just for fun.
I am not 100% sure, but I bet that if you gave two Japanese transcribers audio material, there would be differences in the choice of kanji between the two transcribed texts that may or may not shade the meaning of the transcription differently. The language is frighteningly complex, but native speakers have the advantage of being immersed in Japanese society and culture.
So yes, to give another perspective, I do think the written language frequently helps to eradicate ambiguity and I certainly am of the mind that the Japanese language *needs* a written form. I think the fact that it has a written form (and 3 alphabets - 2 phonetic being the hiragana and katakana and 1 non-phonetic... if you intend on learning all kanji, including those used for names, you're looking at a good 5 000 at my estimate) is what has allows the language to develop these levels of complexity though, rather than the other way around.
Plus, as a native English speaker living in a country where we are in the minority, I frequently find that the written language is used to resolve ambiguity - or create it as the case may be. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lincoln Hui 
Hongkong
Local time: 14:58
Člen
čínština -> angličtina
+ ...
Sergio Juarez Garcia wrote: Regarding the written form of Japanese, there is some point that has not been discussed yet. Japanese has also a huge amount of words that have the same pronunciation and different written forms (just use a Japanese dictionary to check that this is an undeniable truth). So, as far as I can tell, using the kana alphabets are OK if you want to write a colloquial or informal conversation (books for little children, for example, are written using kana and an occasional kanji, but still it is a limited vocabulary) but there's still the possibility that the text becomes ambiguous, the reader gets confused... The only possibility in that case is using kanji to avoid ambiguity. Let's imagine a case: a patent with two recurrent, frequently repeated words that are written the same way using kana and have different meanings. Not to mention that it is a formal text written by an adult scientist or inventor who wants that his/her text is clearly understood without ambiguity. In this case the writer wouldn't use kana to write those words, he would be using kanji to avoid misunderstandings... Not to mention that he would write the patent using surely a computer, as we live in an IT-driven world. We can imagine this inventor or scientist having problems handwriting kanji as well as any other Japanese citizen (this was a point of discussion at the beginning of the thread that seems to have been dropped). So, what's your opinion about this? Should Japanese try harder to remember and recall the way all kanji are written or it is already a different age where IT-devices (computers, smartphones, etc.) make this an unnecessary task? [Edited at 2013-08-15 14:56 GMT]
I believe that Japanese derive more advantage from typing on a computer than Chinese. The fact that the Kanji that are not retained by the average Japanese speaker is retained in many input systems helps significantly with retaining Kanji in typing and reading - but for handwriting, God help you.
| | | | | Nobody uses just kana except school kids | Aug 15, 2013 |
Sergio Juarez Garcia wrote: Let's imagine a case: a patent with two recurrent, frequently repeated words that are written the same way using kana and have different meanings. Not to mention that it is a formal text written by an adult scientist or inventor who wants that his/her text is clearly understood without ambiguity. In this case the writer wouldn't use kana to write those words, he would be using kanji to avoid misunderstandings... Not to mention that he would write the patent using surely a computer, as we live in an IT-driven world. We can imagine this inventor or scientist having problems handwriting kanji as well as any other Japanese citizen (this was a point of discussion at the beginning of the thread that seems to have been dropped). So, what's your opinion about this? Should Japanese try harder to remember and recall the way all kanji are written or it is already a different age where IT-devices (computers, smartphones, etc.) make this an unnecessary task? [Edited at 2013-08-15 14:56 GMT]
That's exactly it - nobody writing anything that complex would ever use *just* kana - of course they *could*, but it would be incredibly difficult to interpret without referring to a dictionary unless you knew beforehand what the topic, context and relevant vocabulary was.
Regarding handwriting though - I think it makes perfect sense to let computers take over some of the heavy lifting - after all, that's what we do in English, right? Sure, there are people who will lament the death of handwriting but I personally am all for progress.
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| IT-devices against traditional writing... | Aug 15, 2013 |
Sarai Pahla wrote: Sergio Juarez Garcia wrote: So, what's your opinion about this? Should Japanese try harder to remember and recall the way all kanji are written or it is already a different age where IT-devices (computers, smartphones, etc.) make this an unnecessary task? [Edited at 2013-08-15 14:56 GMT] Regarding handwriting though - I think it makes perfect sense to let computers take over some of the heavy lifting - after all, that's what we do in English, right? Sure, there are people who will lament the death of handwriting but I personally am all for progress.
I think as you, too. But still tradition is quite difficult to abolish in order to establish a new system of writing more easier to learn than the complex kanji, that is, using only the kana alphabets. The Japanese government, if I recall correctly, thought about that possibility after WWII, but had to discard the idea because that would let the written tradition and books till that time point to be forgotten or unreadable by future generations... Besides, I think kanji is an important side of their culture, so they probably thought that too in order to decide...
[Edited at 2013-08-15 16:22 GMT]
| | | | | I think you misunderstood me | Aug 15, 2013 |
Sergio Juarez Garcia wrote: Sarai Pahla wrote:
Regarding handwriting though - I think it makes perfect sense to let computers take over some of the heavy lifting - after all, that's what we do in English, right? Sure, there are people who will lament the death of handwriting but I personally am all for progress. I think as you, too. But still tradition is quite difficult to dispell or abolish in order to establish a new system of writing more easier to learn than the complex kanji, that is, using only the kana alphabets. The Japanese government, if I recall correctly, thought about that possibility after WWII, but had to discard the idea because that would let the written tradition and items till that time point to be forgotten or unreadable by future generations... Besides, I think kanji is an important side of their culture, so they probably thought that too in order to decide...
Oh - I don't think they should get rid of kanji at all - I'm just saying that handwriting will decline and people will tend to learn the kanji using computers/smartphones or whatever input devices the future will conjure up. Technology, to me, is a good thing in this regard.
| | | | | A hindrance or an advantage for them children? | Aug 15, 2013 |
Sarai Pahla wrote: Sergio Juarez Garcia wrote: Sarai Pahla wrote:
Regarding handwriting though - I think it makes perfect sense to let computers take over some of the heavy lifting - after all, that's what we do in English, right? Sure, there are people who will lament the death of handwriting but I personally am all for progress. I think as you, too. But still tradition is quite difficult to dispell or abolish in order to establish a new system of writing more easier to learn than the complex kanji, that is, using only the kana alphabets. The Japanese government, if I recall correctly, thought about that possibility after WWII, but had to discard the idea because that would let the written tradition and items till that time point to be forgotten or unreadable by future generations... Besides, I think kanji is an important side of their culture, so they probably thought that too in order to decide... Oh - I don't think they should get rid of kanji at all - I'm just saying that handwriting will decline and people will tend to learn the kanji using computers/smartphones or whatever input devices the future will conjure up. Technology, to me, is a good thing in this regard.
I am not certain about it, but I think smartphones and computers can actually be of help to Japanese children learning the kanji, even to Chinese children learning the hanzi. Computer literacy is now learnt at quite an early age and Japanese and Chinese children will be typing their language and the new words they learn and see the different kanji options for these new words. So they type a new word they have heard and they see the kanji options... And intuition or their recall of the kanji makes them type and learn at the same time. Don't you think so?
[Edited at 2013-08-15 17:00 GMT]
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hongkong
Local time: 14:58
Člen
čínština -> angličtina
+ ...
| Japanese more than Chinese | Aug 15, 2013 |
I am not certain about it, but I think smartphones and computers can actually be of help to Japanese children learning the kanji, even to Chinese children learning the hanzi. Computer literacy is now learnt at quite an early age and Japanese and Chinese children will be typing their language and the new words they learn and see the different kanji options for these new words. So they type a new word they have heard and they see the kanji options... And intuition or their recall of the kanji makes them type and learn at the same time. Don't you think so? [Edited at 2013-08-15 17:00 GMT]
Not sure how much this would help Chinese kids, because unlike Japanese, Chinese input methods are not necessarily phonetic. In my part of the world the prevalent method on the computer is writing-based, and handwriting input is very frequently used on smartphones.
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Sergio Juarez Garcia wrote: I am not certain about it, but I think smartphones and computers can actually be of help to Japanese children learning the kanji, even to Chinese children learning the hanzi. Computer literacy is now learnt at quite an early age and Japanese and Chinese children will be typing their language and the new words they learn and see the different kanji options for these new words. So they type a new word they have heard and they see the kanji options... And intuition or their recall of the kanji makes them type and learn at the same time. Don't you think so? [Edited at 2013-08-15 17:00 GMT]
I definitely agree in principle for Japanese
| | | | | Is it possible that Chinese | Aug 15, 2013 |
Lincoln Hui wrote:
Not sure how much this would help Chinese kids, because unlike Japanese, Chinese input methods are not necessarily phonetic. In my part of the world the prevalent method on the computer is writing-based, and handwriting input is very frequently used on smartphones.
What do you mean exactly as writing-based method of writing in computers? I have used a Chinese word processor. With this word processor you can type the hanzi typing the putonghua/普通话 pinyin transcription. I am aware that there are many dialects of Chinese, so maybe not all Chinese people can write the putonghua/普通话 pinyin, but still state TV channels would broadcast in putonghua, so maybe people who speak dialects know also the putonghua dialect and can use word processors and putonghua to write Chinese, am I wrong?
And are smartphones in China so advanced that you can handwrite using a stick on the phone screen the hanzi and the smartphone recognizes them among a database of thousands of hanzi?
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hongkong
Local time: 14:58
Člen
čínština -> angličtina
+ ...
| Chinese input | Aug 15, 2013 |
Sergio Juarez Garcia wrote: Lincoln Hui wrote:
Not sure how much this would help Chinese kids, because unlike Japanese, Chinese input methods are not necessarily phonetic. In my part of the world the prevalent method on the computer is writing-based, and handwriting input is very frequently used on smartphones. What do you mean exactly as writing-based method of writing in computers? I have used a Chinese word processor. With this word processor you can type the hanzi typing the putonghua/普通话 pinyin transcription. I am aware that there are many dialects of Chinese, so maybe not all Chinese people can write the putonghua/普通话 pinyin, but still state TV channels would broadcast in putonghua, so maybe people who speak dialects know also the putonghua dialect and can use word processors and putonghua to write Chinese, am I wrong? And are smartphones in China so advanced that you can handwrite using a stick on the phone screen the hanzi and the smartphone recognizes them among a database of thousands of hanzi?
In Hong Kong, at least, the primary input method is actually Changjie, which is based on "building" the character with keys that corresponds to a certain character-part, or Quick, which operates on the same principle. Fast typists basically remember the key-code for the more common characters. Now I use Cantonese phonetic input, but my experience is that there are zero characters for which I know the pronounciation but not the writing, while there are many characters that I can read and write but not pronounce, and I have to search a dictionary to find their pronounciations in order to type them.
Of course smartphones can recognize Chinese writing input. Heck, even the NDS could do that (remember 脳トレ/Brain Age?); I don't know why you'd think that smartphones couldn't. It's not any more difficult than handwriting recognition in English. There is nothing new about this. Handwriting input has always been popular in the Chinese-speaking world, especially for older people who are unable to type effectively. It is popular in public spaces like libraries because not everyone can type Chinese or use the same input method, and this allows everybody to search using Chinese. This has been around since at least the Windows 98 days (my memory doesn't go back much further). There is handwriting recognition software built-in on Windows and you can input by writing with your mouse.
[Edited at 2013-08-15 18:01 GMT]
| | | | Ambrose Li
Kanada
Local time: 02:58
angličtina
+ ...
| Typing Chinese with Changjei | Aug 15, 2013 |
Lincoln Hui wrote:
Not sure how much this would help Chinese kids, because unlike Japanese, Chinese input methods are not necessarily phonetic. In my part of the world the prevalent method on the computer is writing-based, and handwriting input is very frequently used on smartphones.
…
In Hong Kong, at least, the primary input method is actually Changjie, which is based on "building" the character with keys that corresponds to a certain character-part, or Quick, which operates on the same principle. Fast typists basically remember the key-code for the more common characters. Now I use Cantonese phonetic input, but my experience is that there are zero characters for which I know the pronounciation but not the writing, while there are many characters that I can read and write but not pronounce, and I have to search a dictionary to find their pronounciations in order to type them.
I came from that part of the world too so that’s also how I type. I was once typing away in Changjei in front of a Mandarin speaker from mainland China; she was very impressed and had absolutely no idea what I was typing.
Fast typists actually, I believe, don’t just memorize the more common characters, or at least not intentionally. I’m not really fast, but what I do is I often go by intuition, and it’s when intuition fails that I would try to memorize specific keystrokes.
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| You learn something new everyday... | Aug 15, 2013 |
Lincoln Hui wrote:
In Hong Kong, at least, the primary input method is actually Changjie, which is based on "building" the character with keys that corresponds to a certain character-part, or Quick, which operates on the same principle. Fast typists basically remember the key-code for the more common characters. Now I use Cantonese phonetic input, but my experience is that there are zero characters for which I know the pronounciation but not the writing, while there are many characters that I can read and write but not pronounce, and I have to search a dictionary to find their pronounciations in order to type them.
Of course smartphones can recognize Chinese writing input. Heck, even the NDS could do that (remember 脳トレ/Brain Age?); I don't know why you'd think that smartphones couldn't. It's not any more difficult than handwriting recognition in English. There is nothing new about this. Handwriting input has always been popular in the Chinese-speaking world, especially for older people who are unable to type effectively. It is popular in public spaces like libraries because not everyone can type Chinese or use the same input method, and this allows everybody to search using Chinese. This has been around since at least the Windows 98 days (my memory doesn't go back much further). There is handwriting recognition software built-in on Windows and you can input by writing with your mouse.
[Edited at 2013-08-15 18:01 GMT]
So it is quite a different system in Hong Kong than in mainland China, now that's interesting By your answer, I am confirmed that mastering Chinese writing/reading/pronunciation is quite a complex task, more perhaps than learning Japanese, which has a standardized set of official ideograms. Although I am a foreigner that has learnt Japanese and I find new characters quite often, so maybe it is a problem for Japanese people, too.
I played 脳トレ once, but I didn't actually succeed in writing correctly the characters, the game always interpreted my writing as other characters. Maybe native Chinese and Japanese have mastered how the game or the machine work, I couldn't.
Thanks for your answer, Lincoln, xiexie!
| | | | Phil Hand
Čína
Local time: 14:58
čínština -> angličtina
| Mainland China, too | Aug 15, 2013 |
A lot of people in the mainland use writing-based input methods as well. They never get taught to westerners who learn Chinese because there's not much point - we've generally learned pinyin and find that the most intuitive way to enter characters. But for a lot of Chinese people pinyin isn't the easiest way to write. Among people I know, I'd say it splits about 50/50, half the people use pinyin entry, half use something else.
| | | | Rita Pang
Kanada
Local time: 02:58
Člen (2011)
čínština -> angličtina
+ ...
MODERÁTOR | Oh I can't help it... | Aug 15, 2013 |
Sergio Juarez Garcia wrote:
Thanks for your answer, Lincoln, xiexie!
From the part where we are from, "Xiexie" is not the best way to say thank you (it works obviously, but still ) - "dor jie" is what you'll use.
Lincoln, Ambrose, good for you two- I've never managed Changjie, I found it way too complicated and fell asleep in my second lesson. I use "Chook-sing" and mandarin pinyin to type.
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