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en el marco de trabajo coordinado de cooperación e intercambio
Programador calculista (de explosivos)
Nov 23, 2016 18:55
7 yrs ago
50 viewers *
Spanish term

bis (in this context)

Spanish to English Bus/Financial Law: Taxation & Customs Laws, legal documents, e-billing
I KNOW IT'S IN THE GLOSSARY, so please don't remind me.
However, my quandary is as follows. I've seen discussions about whether "bis" referring to an article of a regulation or law should be translated as "a" or "b". I've usually just translated it as "b" (69b in the text below), but now, having looked at the glossary entries, where some people insist that it shouldn't be translated at all, and others suggest 69a, I'm not so sure.


"El nuevo artículo 69 bis del Reglamento del IVA en la redacción recogida en el Proyecto de Real Decreto establece plazos muy cortos para la remisión electrónica a la AEAT de los registros de facturación."
Proposed translations (English)
4 +6 bis
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Yvonne Gallagher

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Discussion

AllegroTrans Nov 24, 2016:
If we talk about... pro and non-pro, there is a distinct risk that as in a previous question (http://www.proz.com/kudoz/6179650) one of the mods will descend and delete our comments. I simply fail to understand why they do this. Fwiw, I agree that this is not a non-pro question.
Robert Carter Nov 24, 2016:
@Neil. I quite agree. The question has more to do with effective translation strategy for professionals than terminology anyway, and you won't find the answer to that in any regular dictionary.
neilmac (asker) Nov 24, 2016:
Pro on Non-pro? I think the doubts evinced in the discussion show that this shouldn't be glibly dismissed as non-pro.
neilmac (asker) Nov 24, 2016:
Hear hear I second that e-motion :-)
James A. Walsh Nov 23, 2016:
Dear Charles: Please apply for the role of "English Language Policy Manager" at the EU, and get the job.

Yours sincerely ;)
Charles Davis Nov 23, 2016:
If you put "Article 69 a)" or "Article 69a", any reader will assume you are referring to some part of Article 69. But Article 69 bis is not part of Article 69; it's a separate article. "Bis" (or "ter" etc.) only arises when laws are amended. If a new article has to be added between Article 69 and Article 70, it's called Article 69 bis. In UK law, if a new section is added between Section 69 and Section 70 they call it Section 69A: note the capital letter and lack of space. An example is Section 4A of the Public Order Act 1986, added in 1995 between Sections 4 and 5. But to apply the numbering conventions of one legislative system to another is fundamentally misguided.
Charles Davis Nov 23, 2016:
@Ana Thanks for those EU examples, which confirm my reservations about the competence of the Commission's translators. What is particularly confusing about "artículo 10 bis, apartado 2, del Reglamento (CE) no 773/2004" being rendered as "Article 10a(2) of Regulation (EC) No 773/2004" is that if you look at this Regulation it has no Artículo 10 bis in the Spanish version or Article 10a in the English. There is just Article 10, which has 3 sections, numbered 1, 2 and 3. So goodness knows what these references are about.

Be that as it may, in the specific case of EU law you obviously have to use the numbering in the official version in each language. But for a Spanish statute, translating Artículo 69 bis as Article 69 a) creates needless confusion and betrays a misunderstanding of what "bis" means.
Charles Davis Nov 23, 2016:
Late to this but... DO NOT change it. This is an absolutely basic rule and must not be broken. It's not a minefield at all unless you start tinkering with it. Leave the numbering of legal references exactly as it is, always.
neilmac (asker) Nov 23, 2016:
LOL in fact, ROFL :-) A minefield indeed... Having set the cat among the pigeons, I should add that it's not terribly important for my immediate purposes, and I expect that anyone looking for 69b will probably find it not too far away from 69a...
Robert Carter Nov 23, 2016:
@Ana So in that case, would you translate "Article 69a" into Spanish as "Artículo 69 bis"?

In addition, how would you translate "Artículo 69 bis, inciso A, sección ñ"? It's a minefield in my opinion, and it just complicates matters beyond belief, particularly for anyone wishing to go back to look at the original reference in Spanish.
Marian Martin (X) Nov 23, 2016:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=348242

According to the discussion on the above link, bis can be used to refer to the first ammendment to a given Article and is represented as bis, so maybe 69bis is one way to go.
Ana Vozone Nov 23, 2016:
69 a) Please search "bis" on these links:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/IT-ES-EN/TXT/?uri=CEL...

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN-ES-IT/TXT/?uri=CEL...
Robert Carter Nov 23, 2016:
Leave it as "69 bis" I don't think you gain anything by trying to translate it, whereas anyone who might wonder what it means will do by looking it up and learning a little bit of Latin. There is also the possibility of paragraphs "a", "b", "c", etc., existing in Article 69, which could well confuse things even more. I vote leave it.

Proposed translations

+6
1 hr
Spanish term (edited): bis
Selected

bis

i.e. do not translate
The purpose of any translation is to ease understanding
So looking up a reference contaning "(a)" in text containg "bis" will only create confusion, and not understanding

"bis" is used in several Latin-language countries and is often the first "sub-number" (if I may call it that); it is often follwed by (a) (b) etc., so changing it to a letter is quite wrong.

It's a bit like translating "Via Grande" to "Big Street" and expecting the poor Spanish postman to find the address and deliver a letter.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2016-11-23 22:41:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

ERRR.....ERRATUM TO THE ABOVE
Charles's explanation of "bis" being used a denote a separate (i.e. usually added later) Article is spot on.
Note from asker:
Cheers, you've convinced me :)
CD is indeed the man. I've given up trying to scrape kudoz pints off him... :)
Er... points (Freudian slip?)
Peer comment(s):
agree Yvonne Gallagher
30 mins
thanks!
agree Robert Carter : Exactly.
44 mins
thanks!
agree Charles Davis
1 hr
thanks - your explanation in the DB is much better than mine though
agree James A. Walsh
1 hr
thanks!
agree Andy Watkinson
4 hrs
thanks!
agree John Rynne
10 hrs
thanks!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "2 bis or not 2b, that is the question... :)"
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