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géneros, envíos y giros
Fiador
Jun 22, 2011 21:10
12 yrs ago
5 viewers *
Spanish term

24 de diciembre (Noche Buena y Navidad)

Spanish to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s)
Part of a Divorce Agreement

I'd be grateful for any opinions on this so as to avoid any possible fights over the Xmas holidays with the family in question. i.e. what would you put in brackets after "24 de diciembre", "Christmas Eve and Christmas Day" or just "Christmas Eve"?

F) Respecto al día 24 de diciembre (Noche Buena y Navidad) y al día 31 de diciembre (Año Nuevo), uno lo pasarán los menores con la madre y el otro con el padre y en forma alternada el año siguiente.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +6 December 24 (Christmas Eve and Christmas)
5 -1 24 de diciembre = Christmas Eve
5 -1 (Christmas Eve and Christmas Day) (New Year 's Day)
4 Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, New Year's Eve.
4 -1 (Christmas Eve and Christmas Day) (New Year 's Eve)
4 -2 24th December (Christmas)

Discussion

Nikolaj Widenmann Jun 27, 2011:
Como dirían el Chapulín Colorado y el Chavo del 8, respectivamente, "la idea es esa"... (eso, eso, eso)
Richard Hill (asker) Jun 27, 2011:
good point do a solomon on em
moken Jun 27, 2011:
At least... they suggested splitting the kids up instead of chopping them in half! ;O)
Richard Hill (asker) Jun 27, 2011:
... petitioners is that they wish to reach a fair and amicable agreement with respect to their children, thus I believe their intention is: “F) With respect to December 24th and 25th (Christmas Eve and Christmas Day) and December 31st and January 1st (New Year’s Eve and New Year’s Day), the minors shall spend one of such festive periods with their mother, and the other with their father, alternating the following year.” This is my understanding, taking into account the rest of the agreement, where the parents mention birthdays, Easter and other dates, where the kids are never split up, and their intentions are clearly to reach a fair agreement and share their time equally with their kids. Thanks for everyone’s input. Having read all suggestions, I basically agree with WTSTranslations suggestion to “ leave it just as vague as the original- unless you are able to verify with the client/author of source text”
Richard Hill (asker) Jun 27, 2011:
outcome When I asked this question I felt a bit daft for doing so, thinking that, as WTSTranslations says, the parents’ intentions are obvious, i.e. both kids with one parent 24th and 25th and both kids with the other parent over the new year, 31st and 1st, alternating the following year. But with all the responses there is food for thought. i.e. what to do with ambiguus and plainly incorrect source texts, especially regarding legal documents. To my mind, as a translator I should always presume the worst, i.e. the document may become subject to a legal dispute, and that it is not my job to improve on a poorly drafted agreement, but it is my business to satisfy the client. Anyway, I decided to ask my agency, who in turn contacted the client, who was not one of the divorce petitioners, but some other third party (not sure if it’s the original drafter), and their suggestion was ridiculous, i.e. according to the client, “the kids were to be split up, one kid with each parent over each of such festive periods". So I decided to translate as literally as possible and add a translator’s note suggesting that the source text be corrected and that my understanding of the intentions of the divorce...
Sharon Black Jun 23, 2011:
Thanks Merlinva, you're right, it was late! You are also absolutely right about my suggested translation. :-)
moken Jun 23, 2011:
Conferring with the client Hi Rich. I'd instinctively say Navidad in this particular case is meant to refer exclusively to Christamas Day, if only because it's set against New Year's Eve (with no mention of New Year's Day!). However, it's obviously poorly worded and ambiguous, and can be understood and translated in different ways. Perhaps the client has a much clearer picture of what it's supposed to mean or, once the situation has been explained, can at least tell you what idea s/he'd like the translation to convey. As you said, you wouldn't want any trouble to arise due to the translation, but there's only so much you can do with a poorly worded source text. Good luck!
Merlinva Jun 23, 2011:
Oooops!! You are absolutely right, Sharon, my apologies and thank you for showing me my mistake. It is quite late and not good to work when tired. There was no intention of lecturing you on translation, more on anthropology and language ;-). It was just an attempt to clarify and make available some cultural aspects of the Spanish language and social life, specially nice if it means talking about holidays. Thank you again and have a good night.
Sharon Black Jun 23, 2011:
Why, thanks for the translating lesson Merlinva! ;-) As an aside, could I just point out that it is incorrect to include "of" when writing dates? "The" and "of" are used for dates in speech only, and are never written.
Merlinva Jun 23, 2011:
1st of January (Año Nuevo)= New Year 's Day
If a British English speaker listened to the sentence "I put the messages in the press" s/he would think that a journalist or a print worker was talking about printing some information but for an Irish English speaker, it means something totally different, it is " I put the shopping in the cupboard" . This shows how important is the cultural aspect of a language. :-)
Merlinva Jun 23, 2011:
Sharon, translation implies to translate the words, their cultural usage and meaning to another socio-linguistic, cultural context and code. Some times we also have to translate through time. Languages are social tools for that reason the meanings of the same words in the same language might differ between countries, regions, social classes, ethnic and religious groups and historical periods. In Spain and as far as I know in the Spanish speaking world, when people say "Navidades" "la/s Navidades" "en Navidad" they might imply the whole festive period ending the 6th of January, which is know as "las vacaciones de Navidad". If they want to meet on Christmas day they would say "el día de Navidad" Nobody says "las vacaciones de Reyes" they might say "por Reyes" meaning the Epiphany days or "Los Reyes" within the whole Christmas holiday period or Navidades. In Spanish, each major Christmas holiday day is named differently, so it has been in the UK since almost twenty years I have been there. As I listed them earlier:
24th of December (Nochebuena)=Christmas Eve
25th of December (Navidad)=Christmas Day
31st of December (Nochevieja)= New Year´s Eve
1st of January (Año Nuevo)= New Year 's
Merlinva Jun 23, 2011:
it is the first time I participate in a ProZ discussion and I am not sure of how it works and how to reply to comments. I agree with WTS regarding the diversity of interpretations a text might have. We all had mediocre to badly written source texts and know the additional difficulties they cause to the translators.
Also with rich11, regarding the term Christmas also does mean the holiday period a that time of the year. I also agree with Lisa, as it would be a regular procedure to alternate holidays but the text does not clearly state so, therefore it is advisable just to translate what is written, even if it seems incorrect.
Sharon Black Jun 23, 2011:
Badly worded source text In my opinion the source text is badly worded, as "24 de diciembre" is stated, yet in brackets both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day are stated. For me, "Christmas" means Christmas Eve and Christmas Day only. However, this may be cultural, as it seems others here view "Christmas" as a more extended period of time. Therefore, I can see why others have pointed out that both days should be translated, as per the source text, especially as this is a legal text, even though it conflicts with "24 de diciembre" and does not make sense. "Fair do's", as they say.
Nikolaj Widenmann Jun 22, 2011:
The result of vague language... The variety of comments posted in response to this question and its proposed answers are a clear reflection of what might happen should one of the parties seek legal action based on an alleged violation of the clause in question.
Richard Hill (asker) Jun 22, 2011:
Christmas If I say I'm going away for Xmas, I give the impression I'll be away for more than just the 24th or 25th
Richard Hill (asker) Jun 22, 2011:
Lisa I don't think the same parent has them on "for both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day and then (the same parent?) has them again on New Year's Eve". But rather “uno (de tales fechas) lo pasarán los menores con la madre y el otro (de tales fechas) con el padre y en forma alternada el año siguiente”. Thus, if the mother had the kids on Xmas eve-day, the father would have them on New Year’s Eve-Day (over the same holiday period) and the following year dad on Xmas eve-day and mum on new years eve-day.
Lisa McCarthy Jun 22, 2011:
My take The parent has the kid/s for both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day and then has them again on New Year's Eve. I speak for the UK /Ireland but if you're translating for the US maybe it's different, I don´t know. Maybe you could put /(Christmas Eve/Christmas Day)?
Nikolaj Widenmann Jun 22, 2011:
I would avoid that.
Richard Hill (asker) Jun 22, 2011:
where will Santa drop off the pressies Maybe: December 24th (Christmas Eve until Christmas Day) and December 31st (New Year’s Eve until New Year’s Day)
But in this case I'd be adding text that doesn't exist in the original.
Nikolaj Widenmann Jun 22, 2011:
tricky This is definitely a tricky one. We all know what is "really meant" - that the kinds get to spend Christmas with one parent and New Year's with another. But the way it is written seems like an invitation for a legal battle (at least here in the U.S.). What if the kid is not home when the clock strikes 12 on New Year's Eve, and it is no longer Dec. 31?

By the way, I would not eliminate the names of the holidays to be "politically correct"; this is a legal document, and you've got to translate whatever it says. (This comes from someone who still dares to say "merry Christmas" as opposed to "happy holidays").

That aside, had the involved parties (remembers, this is a divorce agreement) been of a different religion, they probably would have worked something into the agreement granting them parenting time on their particular holidays.
- Nikolaj

Proposed translations

+6
9 mins
Selected

December 24 (Christmas Eve and Christmas)

I would leave it just as vague as the original -- unless you are able to verify with the client/author of source text (which is probably not an option) what was really meant. But since this is a legal document, you really need to translate what it says - nada más y nada menos.
Note from asker:
thanks for your suggestion and advice. As this created so much interest I added a new discussion post with the outcome.
Peer comment(s):
agree teresa quimper
2 mins
Thank you.
agree cmwilliams (X)
49 mins
agree Lisa McCarthy : I would say 'Christamas Eve and Christmas DAY' as just 'Christmas' generally implies the whole period. If they meant this, they would have just said 'Navidad' and nothing else.
1 hr
disagree Merlinva : "Navidad" in this case is Christmas Day. The full name is "el día de Navidad" but Spanish speakers omit the word "día" and say "Navidad" when refering to that date. If they mean the whole Christmas period, we say "La Navidad" or "(las) Navidades"
1 hr
agree AllegroTrans : Christmas Eve and Christmas DAY
1 hr
agree Jennifer Levey : Yes, the translation must be as vague as the original. As you mentioned in the discussion box, this seems to have been drafted by lawyers looking for extra fees - at least the argument should remain balanced by offering a strictly literal translation.
1 hr
agree Maria Kisic : As vague as the original.
2 hrs
agree eski
2 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-2
6 mins

24th December (Christmas)

I would just put Christmas as Christmas is celebrated at midnight on 24th in Spanish-speaking countries, and the actual date is specified anyway. I imagine the children would be staying over with the parent in question that night and so would still be there on the morning of 25th as well.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Merlinva : That would be to overtranslate the text
1 hr
disagree AllegroTrans : too much departurefrom the text - this is a legal document
1 hr
Something went wrong...
-1
4 mins

24 de diciembre = Christmas Eve

25 de diciembre = Christmas Day
31 de diciembre = New Year's Eve
1° de enero = New Year's Day


Suerte!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 mins (2011-06-22 21:15:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

When dealing with official documents I would avoid Christmas Day and Eve, the people involved may be Jews or another religion and may not apreciate the reference. I would stick to just the date.

Cheers!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 32 mins (2011-06-22 21:43:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I meant to say when drafting official documents, as a translator of course you must just translate, not alter the document...

Cheers!
Peer comment(s):
agree DIANNE BEREST : :)
4 mins
disagree Merlinva : In my opinion, the translator should just translate what is there without adding or removing anything
14 mins
neutral Lydia De Jorge : I agree with Merlinva. The translator cannot worry about what is politically correct and has to be faithful to the original. BTW, 'Jews' is politically incorrect. Should be 'Jewish'.
24 mins
disagree AllegroTrans : political coorectness is not an option - this is a legal document
1 hr
Something went wrong...
-1
1 hr

(Christmas Eve and Christmas Day) (New Year 's Eve)

This is how it would be translated for the US
Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Eve

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%B1o_Nuevo

Peer comment(s):
disagree Merlinva : The Spanish text says "al día 31 de diciembre (Año Nuevo)" therefore, to translate the text between parenthesis "Año Nuevo" which is the 1st of January or New Year´s Day as New Year´s Eve I am afraid it is incorrect, sorry.
6 mins
December 31st is New Year's Eve
Something went wrong...
-1
15 mins

(Christmas Eve and Christmas Day) (New Year 's Day)

The parties would have to clarify which dates they meant but I would translate what is written in general but more in this one as it is a legal document :
"...24 de diciembre (Noche Buena y Navidad) y al día 31 de diciembre (Año Nuevo),"
"...24th of December (Christmas Eve and Christmas Day) and to the 31st of December (New Year 's Day),

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2011-06-22 22:35:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

24th of December (Nochebuena)=Christmas Eve
25th of December (Navidad)=Christmas Day
31st of December (Nochevieja)= New Year´s Eve
1st of January (Año Nuevo)= New Year 's Day

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2011-06-22 23:46:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

To mediamatrix: Please read the source text again, which I am quoting here for you
"F) Respecto al día 24 de diciembre (Noche Buena y Navidad) y al día 31 de diciembre (Año Nuevo), "
I am not extrapolating "Año Nuevo" (in European Spanish is written with capitals) to a two day period
The source text in Spanish said:
"... y al día 31 de diciembre (Año Nuevo), "
my translation said:
"to the 31st of December (New Year 's Day)"
Would you mind to show me the extrapolation?
Thank you in advance
Peer comment(s):
neutral Nikolaj Widenmann : New Year's Day is January 1st, at least in the U.S.
26 mins
Yes WTS, please read again the source text, I wrote New Year´s Day because that was in ST, and the translation should follow the source, which said "31 de diciembre (Año Nuevo)" which means 31 de diciembre =31 December and (Año Nuevo) = (New Year´s day)
disagree Jennifer Levey : Our role as translators is not to 'interpret', less still 'extrapolate' as you are doing here.//Well, for starters, you are extrapolating 'año nuevo' to mean a 2-day period when the ST only mentions one date://quote:"31st of December (New Year 's Day). "
1 hr
Please, read my explanation, I'm not 'extrapolating' anything. ST said ""31 de diciembre (Año Nuevo)" the TRS should follow the source, "31 de diciembre (Año Nuevo)" which means 31 de diciembre =31 December &(Año Nuevo)=(New Year´s day), what I wrote
Something went wrong...
1 day 22 hrs

Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, New Year's Eve.

New Year's Eve is observed on December 31, the final day of the Gregorian calendar, the day before New Year's Day. New Year's Eve is a separate observance from the observance of New Year's Day. In modern practice, fireworks, music, fun activities and sometimes alcoholic beverages are common elements of the New Year's Eve celebration. New Year's Eve is celebrated with parties and social gatherings spanning the transition of the year at midnight.
Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Eve

Something went wrong...
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