Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
which (use with comma)
English answer:
restrictive vs. nonrestrictive clauses
Added to glossary by
Kim Metzger
Sep 13, 2004 19:59
20 yrs ago
2 viewers *
English term
which (use with comma)
English
Art/Literary
Linguistics
This is more of a general question. However, I think it is quite relevant and important. I've spent most of my almost 40 years in the United States speaking English. I've always written "which" with no comma to connect two clauses:
Example:
That is the book which I am reading.
However, when I use my Word spell-checker to check my translations, Word tells me that this is wrong, that I must either use "which" with a comma before it or "that" with no comma.
I sort of raised an eyebrow at the time as I was unsure this was true. However, since it keeps coming up over and over, I just thought it must be 21st century English or something.
However, a customer was saying it was wrong.
Can anyone tell me-once and for all-what the rule on this is?
I don't know if my customer would be impressed with an argument that goes: Bill Gates says so.
Thanks.
Example:
That is the book which I am reading.
However, when I use my Word spell-checker to check my translations, Word tells me that this is wrong, that I must either use "which" with a comma before it or "that" with no comma.
I sort of raised an eyebrow at the time as I was unsure this was true. However, since it keeps coming up over and over, I just thought it must be 21st century English or something.
However, a customer was saying it was wrong.
Can anyone tell me-once and for all-what the rule on this is?
I don't know if my customer would be impressed with an argument that goes: Bill Gates says so.
Thanks.
Responses
Responses
+17
5 mins
Selected
restrictive vs. nonrestrictive clauses
What is a non-restrictive clause?
Non-restrictive clauses provide descriptive information that isn't essential to the meaning of the sentence.
Examples:
The detective, who was short, fat, and grubby, took down my
statement.
The getaway vehicle, which was pock-marked with rust, was parked
in my driveway.
In these examples, the non-restrictive clauses, which are highlighted, provide extra information about the main subject of the sentence.
Non-restrictive clauses are enclosed with commas.
What is a restrictive clause?
A restrictive clause provides essential information about the subject of a sentence: it restricts the meaning of a sentence by identifying the specific qualities of the noun or pronoun.
Example: The book that is on the bureau is mine.
Here the restrictive clause "that is on the bureau" tells which book is mine. There might be other books in other places, but this sentence is only concerned with the book that is on the bureau.
Do not use commas with a restrictive clause.
Correct: The book that is on the bureau is mine.
Incorrect: The book, that is on the bureau, is mine.
In this example, the restrictive clause identifies the subject of the sentence:
The girl who is picking flowers is in love.
The adjective clause tells which girl is in love; there could be a dozen other girls in the area, but only one is picking flowers.
Restrictive clauses do not need commas.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/UofC/eduweb/grammar/course/punctuatio...
Non-restrictive clauses provide descriptive information that isn't essential to the meaning of the sentence.
Examples:
The detective, who was short, fat, and grubby, took down my
statement.
The getaway vehicle, which was pock-marked with rust, was parked
in my driveway.
In these examples, the non-restrictive clauses, which are highlighted, provide extra information about the main subject of the sentence.
Non-restrictive clauses are enclosed with commas.
What is a restrictive clause?
A restrictive clause provides essential information about the subject of a sentence: it restricts the meaning of a sentence by identifying the specific qualities of the noun or pronoun.
Example: The book that is on the bureau is mine.
Here the restrictive clause "that is on the bureau" tells which book is mine. There might be other books in other places, but this sentence is only concerned with the book that is on the bureau.
Do not use commas with a restrictive clause.
Correct: The book that is on the bureau is mine.
Incorrect: The book, that is on the bureau, is mine.
In this example, the restrictive clause identifies the subject of the sentence:
The girl who is picking flowers is in love.
The adjective clause tells which girl is in love; there could be a dozen other girls in the area, but only one is picking flowers.
Restrictive clauses do not need commas.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/UofC/eduweb/grammar/course/punctuatio...
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Gayle Wallimann
: Great explanation.
1 min
|
agree |
Yolanda Broad
: Clear, thorough explanation (cf sut1.sut.ac.th/strunk/)
3 mins
|
agree |
Nik-On/Off
4 mins
|
agree |
María Teresa Taylor Oliver
: Yeah, that was it. Restrictive and non-restrictive. My memory fails me... and today my mind is going crazy on top of that. *sigh*
8 mins
|
agree |
Richard Benham
: Yes indeed. I have also heard the terms defining / non-defining and limiting / non-limiting.
26 mins
|
agree |
Tony M
: See my answer for what Oxford has to say...
43 mins
|
agree |
Tehani
52 mins
|
agree |
senin
1 hr
|
agree |
Margaret Schroeder
: As Mark, Dusty and Richard point out, a computer can't tell restrictive and unrestrictive apart. (If it could, then it could proably translate novels & poetry too!)
1 hr
|
agree |
humbird
: Yes, Goodword is right. Computer cannot differentiate many things. Kim is far up, close, and personal than computer.
5 hrs
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agree |
jebeen
6 hrs
|
agree |
Saleh Chowdhury, Ph.D.
6 hrs
|
agree |
Johanne Bouthillier
: yes, too many whiches (!) lying around
8 hrs
|
agree |
Refugio
9 hrs
|
agree |
Rajan Chopra
14 hrs
|
agree |
Alfa Trans (X)
1 day 20 hrs
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agree |
Jörgen Slet
2 days 2 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks."
12 mins
dependent and independent clauses
It has to do with dependent and independent clauses, and actually I had a grammar class earlier this year about that, but now, as usual, I don't remember anything :(
These sites might be helpful: owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_clause.html & http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm
These sites might be helpful: owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_clause.html & http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm
+1
13 mins
which is non-restrictive; that is restrictive
According to Strunk and White in The Elements of Style:
"That is the defining, or restrictive pronoun, which the nondefining, or nonrestrictive ...
The lawn mower that is broken is in the garage. (Tells which one)
The lawn mower, which is broken, is in the garage. (Adds a fact about the only mower in question.)
The use of which for that is common in written and spoken language (...) Occasionally which seems preferable to that, as in the sentence from the Bible. But it would be a convenience to all if these two pronouns were used with precision. The careful writer, watchful for small conveniences, goes which-hunting, removes the defining whiches, and by doing so improves his work."
So, if you can leave the clause out without changing the meaning of the sentence, use which preceded by a comma. If you cannot leave it out, use that without a comma.
"That is the defining, or restrictive pronoun, which the nondefining, or nonrestrictive ...
The lawn mower that is broken is in the garage. (Tells which one)
The lawn mower, which is broken, is in the garage. (Adds a fact about the only mower in question.)
The use of which for that is common in written and spoken language (...) Occasionally which seems preferable to that, as in the sentence from the Bible. But it would be a convenience to all if these two pronouns were used with precision. The careful writer, watchful for small conveniences, goes which-hunting, removes the defining whiches, and by doing so improves his work."
So, if you can leave the clause out without changing the meaning of the sentence, use which preceded by a comma. If you cannot leave it out, use that without a comma.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Kim Metzger
: That's still the practice for "edited" American English.
3 mins
|
disagree |
Richard Benham
: If this is in Strunk and White, then you can't always trust Strunk and White! "Which" has always been both defining and non-defining, The important thing is to get the commas right! Before *and* after the (non-defining) clause or none at all (defining)!
44 mins
|
agree |
jebeen
6 hrs
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+1
17 mins
which or that
I had exactly the same experience and looked it up in my English grammar book. There is real choice - something that computers can't always handle. The important thing is obviously to use commas in relative clauses. Which or that may be used when talking about things (as opposed to people)in relative clauses e.g. Where is the cheese that/which was in the fridge?
If anything that is more commonly used in sentences like, "The computer that broke down has now been repaired", but "which broke down" would also be correct.
Also one can say, "Do you know anyone who/that speaks French and Italian?".
You have to use which for things like "Colin told me about his new job, which he is enjoying very much".
So you can sometimes ignore the Spellcheck. Source:English Grammar in Use, Raymond Murphy
If anything that is more commonly used in sentences like, "The computer that broke down has now been repaired", but "which broke down" would also be correct.
Also one can say, "Do you know anyone who/that speaks French and Italian?".
You have to use which for things like "Colin told me about his new job, which he is enjoying very much".
So you can sometimes ignore the Spellcheck. Source:English Grammar in Use, Raymond Murphy
+5
52 mins
see comment below...
I feel I can add little to the excellent answers already given, except this quote from Oxford 'Usage':
Relative clauses can be either restrictive or non-restrictive. A restrictive relative clause serves to restrict the reference of the antecedent, e.g. A suitcase which has lost its handle is useless. Here the antecedent suitcase is defined or restricted by the clause.
A non-restrictive relative clause is used not to narrow the reference of the antecedent, but to add further information, e.g. He carried the suitcase, which had lost its handle, on one shoulder. Here the suitcase is already identified, and the relative clause adds explanatory information.
Notice that no commas are used to mark off a restrictive relative clause from the rest of the sentence, but when, as above, a non-restrictive relative clause comes in the middle of the sentence, it is marked off by a comma at each end. There are two kinds of relative pronouns:
(i) The wh-type: who, whom, whose, which, and, in nominal relative clauses only, what.
(ii) The pronoun that (which can be omitted in some circumstances: see *that (relative pronoun), omission of).
It's interesting that they still suggest the use of 'which' where more modern practice (incl. Word!) prefers that.
Relative clauses can be either restrictive or non-restrictive. A restrictive relative clause serves to restrict the reference of the antecedent, e.g. A suitcase which has lost its handle is useless. Here the antecedent suitcase is defined or restricted by the clause.
A non-restrictive relative clause is used not to narrow the reference of the antecedent, but to add further information, e.g. He carried the suitcase, which had lost its handle, on one shoulder. Here the suitcase is already identified, and the relative clause adds explanatory information.
Notice that no commas are used to mark off a restrictive relative clause from the rest of the sentence, but when, as above, a non-restrictive relative clause comes in the middle of the sentence, it is marked off by a comma at each end. There are two kinds of relative pronouns:
(i) The wh-type: who, whom, whose, which, and, in nominal relative clauses only, what.
(ii) The pronoun that (which can be omitted in some circumstances: see *that (relative pronoun), omission of).
It's interesting that they still suggest the use of 'which' where more modern practice (incl. Word!) prefers that.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Richard Benham
: This confirms my point that "which" is OK in restrictive clauses. Also the important point that commas should come (if at all) in pairs in these clauses--except where the non-defining clause is at the end of the sentence, of course.
10 mins
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Thanks, Richard! Indeed, the commas are all-important for unambiguous reading
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agree |
Kim Metzger
: Great info, Dusty. American "edited English" still calls for using "that" for restrictive and "which" for non-restrictive clauses. But I've noticed that many well-written docs use "which" for restrictive clauses. So your Oxford reference explains it.
13 mins
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Thanks, Kim! Seems its maybe a bit old-fashioned now, but explains why we still come across it...
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agree |
Margaret Schroeder
24 mins
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Thanks, GW!
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agree |
Saleh Chowdhury, Ph.D.
5 hrs
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Thanks, Saleh!
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agree |
Jörgen Slet
2 days 12 hrs
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Thanks, Jörgen!
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1 hr
Age-old problem: AE or BE?
If you're writing American English, it's a good bet to rely on US style manuals for correct usage.
---
From the New York Times Manual of Style and Usage, 1999:
that, which - Use 'that', not 'which', in a restrictive clause - a clause necessary to the reader's understanding of the sentence: 'The town that the pitcher calls home is tiny Hawley, Pa. (The sentence serves no purpose without 'that the pitcher calls home.')
Note that there are no commas around the clause.
In a nonrestrictive clause - one providing added information, not essential to understand the sentence - use 'which', preceded by a comma: Hawley, Pa., which the pitcher calls home, is tiny.
(The sentence is understandable without 'which the pitcher calls home.'
---
From the New York Times Manual of Style and Usage, 1999:
that, which - Use 'that', not 'which', in a restrictive clause - a clause necessary to the reader's understanding of the sentence: 'The town that the pitcher calls home is tiny Hawley, Pa. (The sentence serves no purpose without 'that the pitcher calls home.')
Note that there are no commas around the clause.
In a nonrestrictive clause - one providing added information, not essential to understand the sentence - use 'which', preceded by a comma: Hawley, Pa., which the pitcher calls home, is tiny.
(The sentence is understandable without 'which the pitcher calls home.'
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Richard Benham
: Our asker seems to be quite literate, and says he's lived most of his life in the US, and still naturally uses "which" restrictively. So it seems more about US vs UK style manuals than about US vs UK usage as such, Bizarre!
6 hrs
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I taught (freshman) college compostion in the US. This was one of the topics covered by my American students.
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+3
47 mins
which vs that
I have noticed the same phenomenon with the syntax checker on Word.
I think it is wrong.
There are instances where "which" sounds right, and there are instances where "that" sounds right. Sometimes, either is OK, and sometimes one sounds distinctly odd to the native speaker's ear.
My advice to you, if you're a near-native speaker, is to use whichever seems more natural. As long as you observe the distinction mentioned in Kim's excellent answer, you will not be misunderstood or commit a serious solecism.
I would also point out that it is a very common error to put a comma before or after a which-clause, but not both, which is almost always wrong. It is OK to have only one comma if the clause comes at the end of a sentence, which is obvious.
Exactly the same considerations apply to "who" and "that" clauses, of course.
"My sister, who lives in Norway, recently got married."
This suggests that either I only have one sister or I don't feel like mentioning the other(s) and that I am throwing in a little bit of additional but non-essential information about her.
"My sister who lives in Norway recently got married."
If I have just mentioned that I have two sisters, one living Norway and one in Afghanistan, using this construction would serve to identify which sister I am talking about. The "who lives in Norway" is not additional but non-essential information; it is part of the definition of the subject.
I think it is especially important for native speakers of German to observe this distinction, as subordinate clauses are always required to be set off with commas. (This consideration may also be useful interpreting the writings of German speakers who are not expert at English.)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs 22 mins (2004-09-14 04:21:40 GMT)
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An odd story. My grandmother, who was born in the 1880s, was an English teacher. As I child, I read in one of her even then very old British textbooks that \"which\" was, strictly speaking, the *only* grammatically correct relative pronoun, and that \"who\" and \"that\" were therefore ungrammatical used as relatives. It went on to say, however, that \"the best writers of all generations\" had ignored this rule.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs 22 mins (2004-09-14 04:21:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
An odd story. My grandmother, who was born in the 1880s, was an English teacher. As I child, I read in one of her even then very old British textbooks that \"which\" was, strictly speaking, the *only* grammatically correct relative pronoun, and that \"who\" and \"that\" were therefore ungrammatical used as relatives. It went on to say, however, that \"the best writers of all generations\" had ignored this rule.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs 22 mins (2004-09-14 04:21:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
An odd story. My grandmother, who was born in the 1880s, was an English teacher. As I child, I read in one of her even then very old British textbooks that \"which\" was, strictly speaking, the *only* grammatically correct relative pronoun, and that \"who\" and \"that\" were therefore ungrammatical used as relatives. It went on to say, however, that \"the best writers of all generations\" had ignored this rule.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs 56 mins (2004-09-14 04:55:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Sorry about the note being repeated above. I must have inadvertently clicked twice.
US vs UK: Kim has expressed the view that there is a US vs UK divide in the use of \"which\" vs the use of \"that\". I think this is only partially true.
While US teachers and syle-book authors may preach the use of \"that\" for restrictive clauses and \"which\" for non-restricitve clauses, many educated Americans, including some noted authors, seem happy to ignore this distinction. When you couple this with the observation that UK style books, such as the one quoted by Dusty, use as examples of correct usage sentences with restrictive which-clauses, it seems hard to justify this so-called rule on either side of the Atlantic.
I note that my installation of Word objects to restrictive which-clauses when set to British or Australian English, as well as when set to US English. I don\'t suppose we can do much about economic imperialism, but I draw the line at this syntactic imperialism.
I think it is wrong.
There are instances where "which" sounds right, and there are instances where "that" sounds right. Sometimes, either is OK, and sometimes one sounds distinctly odd to the native speaker's ear.
My advice to you, if you're a near-native speaker, is to use whichever seems more natural. As long as you observe the distinction mentioned in Kim's excellent answer, you will not be misunderstood or commit a serious solecism.
I would also point out that it is a very common error to put a comma before or after a which-clause, but not both, which is almost always wrong. It is OK to have only one comma if the clause comes at the end of a sentence, which is obvious.
Exactly the same considerations apply to "who" and "that" clauses, of course.
"My sister, who lives in Norway, recently got married."
This suggests that either I only have one sister or I don't feel like mentioning the other(s) and that I am throwing in a little bit of additional but non-essential information about her.
"My sister who lives in Norway recently got married."
If I have just mentioned that I have two sisters, one living Norway and one in Afghanistan, using this construction would serve to identify which sister I am talking about. The "who lives in Norway" is not additional but non-essential information; it is part of the definition of the subject.
I think it is especially important for native speakers of German to observe this distinction, as subordinate clauses are always required to be set off with commas. (This consideration may also be useful interpreting the writings of German speakers who are not expert at English.)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs 22 mins (2004-09-14 04:21:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
An odd story. My grandmother, who was born in the 1880s, was an English teacher. As I child, I read in one of her even then very old British textbooks that \"which\" was, strictly speaking, the *only* grammatically correct relative pronoun, and that \"who\" and \"that\" were therefore ungrammatical used as relatives. It went on to say, however, that \"the best writers of all generations\" had ignored this rule.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs 22 mins (2004-09-14 04:21:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
An odd story. My grandmother, who was born in the 1880s, was an English teacher. As I child, I read in one of her even then very old British textbooks that \"which\" was, strictly speaking, the *only* grammatically correct relative pronoun, and that \"who\" and \"that\" were therefore ungrammatical used as relatives. It went on to say, however, that \"the best writers of all generations\" had ignored this rule.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs 22 mins (2004-09-14 04:21:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
An odd story. My grandmother, who was born in the 1880s, was an English teacher. As I child, I read in one of her even then very old British textbooks that \"which\" was, strictly speaking, the *only* grammatically correct relative pronoun, and that \"who\" and \"that\" were therefore ungrammatical used as relatives. It went on to say, however, that \"the best writers of all generations\" had ignored this rule.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs 56 mins (2004-09-14 04:55:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Sorry about the note being repeated above. I must have inadvertently clicked twice.
US vs UK: Kim has expressed the view that there is a US vs UK divide in the use of \"which\" vs the use of \"that\". I think this is only partially true.
While US teachers and syle-book authors may preach the use of \"that\" for restrictive clauses and \"which\" for non-restricitve clauses, many educated Americans, including some noted authors, seem happy to ignore this distinction. When you couple this with the observation that UK style books, such as the one quoted by Dusty, use as examples of correct usage sentences with restrictive which-clauses, it seems hard to justify this so-called rule on either side of the Atlantic.
I note that my installation of Word objects to restrictive which-clauses when set to British or Australian English, as well as when set to US English. I don\'t suppose we can do much about economic imperialism, but I draw the line at this syntactic imperialism.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Margaret Schroeder
28 mins
|
Thanks
|
|
agree |
Kim Metzger
: Here's the old problem of "what is correct English." If you ask an American editor, you'll get a different answer. But I'm glad you've cleared up something that I've been mulling over.
29 mins
|
I really don't know about the geographical distribution. But Dusty's quote suggests restrictive "which" is alive and well in Old Blighty, if not in North America.
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agree |
Jörgen Slet
2 days 12 hrs
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Thanks.
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Discussion
Decadence everywhere, I'm afraid.