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Hypocaptant

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

école républicaine

English translation:

state school system

Added to glossary by Thomas Miles
Apr 3, 2019 09:29
5 yrs ago
3 viewers *
French term

école républicaine

French to English Social Sciences Education / Pedagogy
In this guide aimed at teachers delivering lessons on the history of Africa, one section looks at the current challenges that the continent is facing.

Students are prompted to complete a number of activities around education challenges, including:

"Identifier les défis de l’éducation dans votre pays ou région
Organiser des débats sur les problèmes auxquels l’Ecole dans votre pays fait face aujourd’hui
Dire ce que doit faire l’Etat pour sauvegarder l’Ecole républicaine"

As this is resolutely not aimed at French schools (and not all African states are republics), how should I interpet the notion of 'école républicaine'? Simply 'state schools' or something a little deeper, such as 'schools operating in accordance with republican principles'?

xxx
Proposed translations (English)
4 public/state school system
4 +2 publicly funded secular schools
4 +1 École républicaine (italics)
4 -1 The French Republican School
References
French-style secularism

Discussion

Pierre POUSSIN Apr 6, 2019:
French History I deleted my answers since some of my "learned" colleagues are trying to invent hot water. I have been in the teaching trade in France for more than 40 years and often met opposite numbers British or American. And they perfectly understood what the "State school system" meant. In France, nowadays, every interested person be it z pzrent, a teacher, a head-master knows that "école républicaine", "école publique" or "école laïque" is exactly the same thing. Under the IIIrd Republic (1870-1940), school masters in elementary "state schools" were called "Black hussars of the Republic", and their main mission was to compete (and win!) against "congregational or religious schoolsé Still well known competition in the western part of France.
A "Jules FERRY' (1822-1893) passed a law making mandatory the creation of an elementary school (free and mandatory) in each city, town, big village, for boys and girls (not yet mixed classes) for the "people children' (republican value). Of course it is a long, long story, but in the relevant case, I strongly believe the best translation would be "State schools system" (not "Public schools", of course).
Yvonne Gallagher Apr 5, 2019:
@ Eliza
Why use media when it's going to bring up contemporaneous use where the French republic and its ideals are rarely, if ever, discussed in English media? Obviously, if you put "French republican values " or some such you are going to get a much different result! https://www.google.com/search?q=french republican values&rlz... and guess what shows up! "Why look at contemporary media rather than dictionaries for a historical term?? Anyway, assez! I contend that none of the answers are 100% or even close w/o ref to the word républicaine, uncapitalised in both Fr and En. It's an adj. here with school, also uncapitalised in English (as not a proper noun).
Eliza Hall Apr 5, 2019:
@ Yvonne Yvonne, I'm sorry if I touched a nerve. I do think that regardless of what order a dictionary lists definitions in, you can understand how words are most commonly used if you search for those words in the media.

UK, Canadian and American major-newspaper sites all bring up links on the Republican party (and in the UK, the Irish Republic itself or the IRA) before, and in far greater numbers than, links on "republican forms of government" in the French sense.

The only site I found in the English-speaking world that had anything else in the first page of results was the Irish Times, and even they had one article (of the first eight) referring to "the Irish republican mindset," another discussing "republican fringe group Saoradh" (an Irish political party formed by "dissident republicans" in the Irish-republican sense) and another four referring to the US Republican party. So that's six out of eight articles, in the Irish Times, NOT using the term in the French sense. The numbers were even more skewed in non-Irish news sources.

And of course I know about the French Republic and its ideals. I'm simply saying that "Republican" or "republican" is not a good English translation for it.
Yvonne Gallagher Apr 5, 2019:
@ Eliza
I don't need dictionary links for definitions of "republican" (with and without a capital) as I already know it's got several meanings but I gave YOU the link since you persisted in mentioning only 2 meanings of the word, neither of which are the PRIMARY meaning, particularly on a worldwide basis, which is: "a supporter of government by elected representatives of the people rather than government by a king or queen". There are republicans in this sense in many countries, including in the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand who wish to live in a republic rather than in a monarchy. Only the most racist of Brits would conflate the IRA with the Republic of Ireland/Irish people as you have done. The ROI was proclaimed in 1916 on the basis of FRENCH REPUBLIC values/motto of: "Liberty, equality, fraternity", (as were many other republics world-wide). And this is the sense of "republican" HERE French republican values are not at all synonymous with the IRA. Ignorance is no excuse for giving offence. Not all Americans are as ignorant of world history but it seems strange that someone working from French knows zilch about the French Republic and its ideals.
Eliza Hall Apr 4, 2019:
@PhB Sorry, you're right about the French original's capitalization.

For clarity, the reason "républicain(e)" isn't generally capitalized in French isn't because of some special feature of that word. It's just because it's an adjective, and therefore it's almost never the first word of a title or sentence. When it is -- for instance, if it's the name of a newspaper -- it's capitalized (e.g. Le Républicain Lorrain https://www.republicain-lorrain.fr/).

Under French capitalization rules, only the first word is capitalized, or if it's a grammatical article then it and the subsequent noun are capitalized ("Le X bla bla"). That contrasts with English rules, which capitalize the whole title apart from very short connecting words (Proust's "In Search of Lost Time" vs. "A la recherche du temps perdu"; Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath" vs. "Les Raisins de la colère"). So "'Ecole républicaine," if you were doing a word-for-word translation and didn't care about accuracy of meaning, should probably be translated and capitalized as "Republican School."
Ph_B (X) Apr 4, 2019:
"And the French original is even capitalized." Just for the record: only École is capitalized, and not every time. That never applies to républicaine, which is always written in lower case.
Eliza Hall Apr 4, 2019:
@Yvonne If you're offended by me, are you even more offended by the fact that the Oxford English Dictionary defines "republican" as, among other things, "an advocate of a united Ireland"? Also, search "republican" on https://www.bbc.co.uk. You'll get the Republican party, and... yes, articles about members of the IRA.

And I agree with you that it would be great if the general public were more literate in history. But they're not, and we're translating for this world, not the world as it should be.

You asked, "As for assuming that every American... thinks of the Republican Party when they see the word 'republican' is quite an assumption to make. Are you saying people's vocabulary is really that poor?"

Yes. Yes, I am. Honestly, nearly 65 million American adults voted for Trump. We're not geniuses here. And the French original is even capitalized, as is François Boye's proposed translation. Republican with a capital R is guaranteed to be perceived by virtually all Americans as meaning the Republican party.

And by Canadians too. I just ran a search for "republican" on the website of the Toronto Globe & Mail (major Canadian newspaper). Guess what came up?
Yvonne Gallagher Apr 4, 2019:
@ Eliza
Frankly I find your contention re the IRA ludicrous and quite offensive. I think a few history classes wouldn't go amiss, or at least a bit of reading. As for assuming that every American (or Canadian for that matter) thinks of the Republican Party when they see the word 'republican' is quite an assumption to make. Are you saying people's vocabulary is really that poor? And anyway, the world doesn't revolve around the USA. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/republic... or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism
I repeat, you (and others) are only giving part of the answer here. Read what Ph_B has written and the links I've given to get the principles on which such a school is based (even if it's not completely the reality these days, or ever).
Eliza Hall Apr 4, 2019:
Republican = faux ami; secular = laïque As the title states. Nowhere in the English-speaking world does "Republican" mean even close to the same thing as "Républicain." In the US... well you know (Trump, etc.). In the UK... Irish Republican Army; the Irish Republic is probably the first thing most British people think of when they hear the word "Republican," unless they follow US politics, in which case Trump and his minions are the first thing they think of and Ireland is the second.

This is a classic example of a faux ami.

So forget "Republican." It's the wrong translation.

And Daryo, I don't agree that "l'école laïque" is hard to translate. "Secular schools" -- see, I did it :)

But since laïc doesn't mean publicly funded, that concept needs to be added to the translation as well, to get as close as possible to the concept of the French original.
Ph_B (X) Apr 3, 2019:
École laïque addresses only the religious part of the answer. École républicaine is also about being state-run and about teaching the same thing to everyone everywhere within the Republic - du moins en théorie. It's about building a nation. May sound odd nowadays but not in the context of the French 1880s.
Daryo Apr 3, 2019:
To make it clearer, "l'école républicaine" is just another name for "l'école laïc".

Not that it helps much finding the right translation, as "l'école laïc" is as much difficult to translate, being a specifically French concept.
Ph_B (X) Apr 3, 2019:
Any chance you could steer away from that republican thing if this is meant for an English-speaking audience which may not be familiar with the concept of "l'École républicaine" ? I realise its importance since it's a history lesson but could you not just try to find adjectives or a turn of phrase etc. that would convey the same idea (and possibly add a translator's note about "l'École républicaine")? This is going to be an interesting question!
Ph_B (X) Apr 3, 2019:
École républicaine and religion I didn't have enough space above but "state schools" doesn't necessarily mean that religion is absent. In British state schools for instance, there's a daily prayer in assembly or otherwise. It isn't compulsory, of course. However, under no circumstances will "l'École républicaine" allow any public act of worship whatsoever.
Ph_B (X) Apr 3, 2019:
state schools vs. École républicaine I'm not sure that "state" does justice to what "l'École républicaine" implies/stands for. Backtranslated, "state school system" would be something like l'Éducation nationale and again that doesn't really cover l'École républicaine. This phrase refers to values, or principles as you said in your intro, which the IIIrd French Republic allegedly set out to defend. It's also what this teaching activity is about. Good info from the Bibliothèque nationale de France here: ...une révolution éducative majeure : la création d'une école laïque, gratuite, obligatoire et suivant un programme commun à toutes les régions et toutes les classes sociales françaises...de nombreux républicains pensent que la consolidation de la République passe par l’école. Il s’agit de laïciser l’école afin d’affranchir les consciences de l’emprise de l’Église et de fortifier la patrie en formant des citoyens (https://www.retronews.fr/cycle/lecole-republicaine-une-insti... I'm afraid I don't have anything to suggest, but I find "state" a bit bland here. Surely, if that's what your author meant, wouldn't they have used e.g. "écoles publiques"?
Pierre POUSSIN Apr 3, 2019:
Traditional Beware: in Africa, a traditional school could be a "medersa" (a coranic school).
Thomas Miles (asker) Apr 3, 2019:
traditional I think that, especially in the context of developing African nations, "traditional" schools could be interpreted as some other model of education entirely.
Josephine Cassar Apr 3, 2019:
Républicaine- Maybe in the sense of 'traditional'?

Proposed translations

27 mins
Selected

public/state school system

(...) in order to safeguard the public/state school system.

-> This way, you're talking about a "system" (which only applies to relevant African states).
Note from asker:
Excellent suggestion, thanks.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Pierre POUSSIN : A"public school" in English is NOT a state school, but, in fact, a éprivate school"!
12 mins
agree Victoria Britten : I think it's a good idea to point up the fact that it is about a whole system. "Public" for a US audience; "state" for GB (where "public" schools are anything but!!)
30 mins
Thank you, Victoria! Not knowing what the target audience was (UK/US), I figured I would include both.
agree Tereza Rae
1 hr
Thanks, Tereza.
disagree Eliza Hall : Agree with the concept, but these terms are not quite right. "Public schools" means private schools in the UK (totally opposite meaning than in the US), and "state schools" is off because, as others noted, it could be religious in Africa.
3 hrs
disagree Daryo : you could have "state schools" that DO NOT and "non-state/private ..." schools that DO qualify to be called "école républicaine" IOW you are presuming a non-existent correlation.
6 hrs
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : Public= private/expensive in UK and many state-run schools include religious instruction/prayers etc.
6 hrs
agree katsy : Perhaps "public" could be avoided because the the UK interpretation, but in context I am not sure it is a problem. This is the idea
8 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "This was the suggestion I integrated into the translation, and worked best based on the wider context."
-1
3 hrs

The French Republican School

It is not an accident that the French write 'l’Ecole républicaine' instead of 'l'école républicaine'. See below for more explanations.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9781137316080_4
Peer comment(s):
neutral Daryo : your link is very relevant - spot on! But I don't think that simply reusing the title "The French Republican School" is the best way of giving a name for the concept of "l'école républicaine!".
3 hrs
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : doesn't work in English, especially capitalised. It's NOT a proper noun! You need to provide an explanation ( not just a link) as most people wouldn't have a clue. But it's part of meaning to be included so am changing my disagree to neutral
3 hrs
disagree Eliza Hall : I'm with Yvonne. "Republican" is a faux ami for "Républicain(e)." It has a completely different meaning in the US, and another completely different meaning in the UK.
9 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
6 hrs

publicly funded secular schools

If this were strictly for a US audience you could say "public schools," because in the US that means government-funded, totally secular schools with no religious education, which is what the French original means.

But in the UK "public schools" means something completely different -- they're privately funded, with exorbitant tuition fees, and they include religious education. Even "state schools" in the UK can include religious education, so that translation doesn't work either.

So, because there is no international English term that is equivalent to "l'école républicaine," you need an explanatory translation: publicly funded (or government funded if you prefer), secular.
Peer comment(s):
agree Ph_B (X) : that this translation summarises what I explained in the discussion box, and with Yvonne below.
4 mins
Thank you.
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : ...But not simply that. You need to include something on the republican principle of equality of opportunity as the ethos//Read my refs//"republican" does not equate to the IRA!! Esp. when speaking of French republican principles
1 hr
Why? That's not inherent in the word "Républicain," at least not more than it's inherent in the concept of publicly funded nonreligious schools (which only exist because people think kids should have equal opportunity regardless of wealth or religion).
disagree Francois Boye : The concept of 'Republican School' is a standard coined in the 1880s by the Third Republic to define the framework to educate the masses in France.
2 hrs
And we don't know what it means because it's a faux ami/bad translation. Republican means something completely different in the US, and something else again in the UK (Irish Republican Army). So you need an explanatory translation.
agree Yolanda Broad
6 hrs
agree Daryo : sounds like one good solution - at least for those who really understand the concept.
13 days
Something went wrong...
+1
3 days 5 hrs

École républicaine (italics)


As already mentioned in the discussion box,

École républicaine refers to a reform of French education in the 1880s, which Bibliothèque nationale de France aptly describes as the introduction of “école laïque, gratuite, obligatoire et suivant un programme commun à toutes les régions et toutes les classes sociales françaises” (https://www.retronews.fr/cycle/lecole-republicaine-une-insti...

I don't think that “state school(s) system” or “republican school" faithfully reflects all that École républicaine stands for, nor is it accurate; the former doesn’t necessarily exclude public acts of worship, which École républicaine would definitely not allow, and the latter could be too vague or misleading or not understood at all in the English-speaking world if you don't know enough French history.

Also, trying to get all that defines École républicaine into one bit sounds like an impossible task if you want your text to flow easily. Would “free, state-run, secular, universal, non-discriminatory/all-inclusive, etc. school system” work in English without being too cumbersome and above all, would it fit nicely into Thomas’s text?

I suggest keeping the French and adding a short translator’s note (perhaps a translation of the BnF line I quoted above?). After all, we use "Commonwealth" in French and English uses "Entente Cordiale" without any problem as far as I know. Keeping the French would alert the interested reader and the note would steer him or her in the right direction.

(Apologies for discussing other answers here; I realize there’s a rule against that but it can’t be wrong if it’s done in a decent and polite way, which I believe is the case.)
Peer comment(s):
agree Daryo
10 days
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

8 hrs
Reference:

French-style secularism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_France
interesting article here:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/04/07/the-battle-for-the-fren...

In 1905, when France’s Third Republic enacted the separation of church and state, it offered a simple definition of the term. Laïcité “assures the liberty of conscience” of all French citizens, the new law read. This law was given further elaboration in the constitution of the Fifth (and current) Republic: Laïcité “assures the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction to their origin, race, or religion. It respects all religious beliefs.” There was essentially no substantive difference between the style of secularism envisioned by the founders of laïcité and the framers of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. As in the United States, French secularism nitially sought to ensure religious pluralism in the public and private spheres — nothing more, nothing less.

Unlike American secularism, laïcité is the capstone to a long history of conflict, and deep distrust, between French republican and Catholic institutions. Dating back to the French Revolution in 1789, the smoldering embers of this battle flared again as late as the 1980s, when Catholics and Socialists clashed over state subsidies for private schools, most of which were (and remain) Catholic. But while the republic has sought to sever its official ties with the church, it has not contested its right to teach the republic’s children or to minister to the faithful....
The once-straightforward guarantees of “freedom of conscience” and “free exercise of religious faiths” — rooted in and restricted to the constitutions of the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Republics — were transformed under the forces of political passion and mounting existential anguish into the defining French values, and any form of retreat from a fundamentalist interpretation was a failure to defend the republic..."

https://www.historytoday.com/what-french-secularism

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/secularisminfran...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2019-04-03 17:37:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://eduscol.education.fr/cid76044/the-secularism-charter-...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2019-04-03 17:38:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"...The secular republic does not give preferential treatment to its citizens pertaining to their convictions or beliefs, especially through public services or in other institutions. Secularism is not one opinion among many, but the freedom to have an opinion. It is not a conviction but the principle that authorises all convictions, subject to respect for public order.

Secular Schooling
Secular schooling, an even older principle, dates back to the 1882 educational laws of Jules Ferry (secular education) and the Goblet law of 1886 (secular teaching staff), and is based on three principles: freedom of conscience for pupils, separation between public schools and religious groups and equality for all in relation to school and knowledge, regardless of belief or conviction..."
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Ph_B (X)
5 mins
Thanks:-) I agree with your Dbox notes.
agree writeaway
2 days 4 hrs
Thanks:-)
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