This question was closed without grading. Reason: Answer found elsewhere
Nov 28, 2022 11:04
1 yr ago
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French term
produire
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
This is a mémoire ampliatif for the Cour de cassation. It's about a judgment given in India ordering court-ordered liquidation of several companies, one of which is French.
The thing it's mainly concerned with is the standing of such a judgment in French courts, even before an exequatur ("authority to execute") is given in France, and in particular the right of the Indian liquidator (M. AAA below) to be joined to proceedings.
This is a part where case law is examined.
"Saisie des effets juridiques attachés à une décision du tribunal de Malawi ayant prononcé l’ouverture d’une « procédure de liquidation provisionnelle puis de liquidation » et désigné un liquidateur, la Cour de cassation a également énoncé que « les liquidateurs tenaient du jugement étranger qui les a désignés, ne fût-il pas revêtu de l'exequatur, le pouvoir de représenter les créanciers ayant produit entre leurs mains ou auprès de la juridiction étrangère », et avaient « dans les conditions fixées par la loi et les autorités étrangères, qualité pour adresser au représentant des créanciers nommé dans la procédure ouverte en France une déclaration de créance en leur nom ».
I think there's something missing here. The most likely perhaps being été between "ayant" and "produit". However it occurs to me marginally that there might be an intransitive use of produire in French legalese which I've never come across.
The thing it's mainly concerned with is the standing of such a judgment in French courts, even before an exequatur ("authority to execute") is given in France, and in particular the right of the Indian liquidator (M. AAA below) to be joined to proceedings.
This is a part where case law is examined.
"Saisie des effets juridiques attachés à une décision du tribunal de Malawi ayant prononcé l’ouverture d’une « procédure de liquidation provisionnelle puis de liquidation » et désigné un liquidateur, la Cour de cassation a également énoncé que « les liquidateurs tenaient du jugement étranger qui les a désignés, ne fût-il pas revêtu de l'exequatur, le pouvoir de représenter les créanciers ayant produit entre leurs mains ou auprès de la juridiction étrangère », et avaient « dans les conditions fixées par la loi et les autorités étrangères, qualité pour adresser au représentant des créanciers nommé dans la procédure ouverte en France une déclaration de créance en leur nom ».
I think there's something missing here. The most likely perhaps being été between "ayant" and "produit". However it occurs to me marginally that there might be an intransitive use of produire in French legalese which I've never come across.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +5 | prove (a debt); lodge, submit or file a proof of debt |
Adrian MM.
|
Proposed translations
+5
4 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
359
prove (a debt); lodge, submit or file a proof of debt
> as in the first ProZ weblink and Emmanuella's 'production' discussion entry, 'nothing is missing' legally, legalistically or in FRE/EN insolvency practice, as produire is shorthand for the proof of debt or claim.
Submission of a proof of debt is the preferred turn of phrase in Introduction to Corporate & Personal Insolvency Law, Fiona Tolmie / Kingston Uni. (Surrey rather than Hull), Sweet & Maxwell.
AmE: file a proof of claim.Rule 3002. Filing Proof of Claim or Interest - Law.Cornell.Edu https://www.law.cornell.edu › frbp The rule is amended to direct the clerk to give at least 90 days' notice of the time within which creditors may file a proof of claim
Despite my Chancery/ Bankruptcy Bar connections (collaboration with the co-authors of Muir Hunter QC on Insolvency), my only doubt is whether a proof can be 'entered'.
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Note added at 18 days (2022-12-17 01:09:55 GMT)
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The construction of produire as an intransitive verb doesn't exist in 'my imagination', but has existed in French on paper in my in-tray - just about every month - since my London Translation office days half a century ago and digitally up to 40 years ago.
Navarre: produire à une une liquidation ou faillite = to prove claims (in a liquidation or bankruptcy). https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/produire ...
Otherwise, insolvency and bankruptcy law is an unpopular postgrad. LLM etc. subject in E&W (sequestration in Scotland), so tends to have few takers, but you would do well to shop around or dip into the Muir Hunter or Fiona Tolmie works mentioned.
Submission of a proof of debt is the preferred turn of phrase in Introduction to Corporate & Personal Insolvency Law, Fiona Tolmie / Kingston Uni. (Surrey rather than Hull), Sweet & Maxwell.
AmE: file a proof of claim.Rule 3002. Filing Proof of Claim or Interest - Law.Cornell.Edu https://www.law.cornell.edu › frbp The rule is amended to direct the clerk to give at least 90 days' notice of the time within which creditors may file a proof of claim
Despite my Chancery/ Bankruptcy Bar connections (collaboration with the co-authors of Muir Hunter QC on Insolvency), my only doubt is whether a proof can be 'entered'.
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Note added at 18 days (2022-12-17 01:09:55 GMT)
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The construction of produire as an intransitive verb doesn't exist in 'my imagination', but has existed in French on paper in my in-tray - just about every month - since my London Translation office days half a century ago and digitally up to 40 years ago.
Navarre: produire à une une liquidation ou faillite = to prove claims (in a liquidation or bankruptcy). https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/produire ...
Otherwise, insolvency and bankruptcy law is an unpopular postgrad. LLM etc. subject in E&W (sequestration in Scotland), so tends to have few takers, but you would do well to shop around or dip into the Muir Hunter or Fiona Tolmie works mentioned.
Example sentence:
IATE: fr produire au passif Consilium en to declare one\'s claims fr produire une créance Consilium en to lodge a claim Consilium
If the trustee is the Official Trustee (AFSA), you can prove your debt by lodging a proof of debt form. The trustee will ask you to complete this form.
Note from asker:
| Emmanuella's link in fact proves nothing whatsoever, as it concerns a transitive usage. But I see and am intrigued by the "produire au passif" entry in Iate you reference. However, as things stand, you haven't really shown that "produire" on its own, in French, can mean "prove a claim". You seem (as far as I can tell) to be relying on the intransitive use of "produce" in *English* to assure me that the French verb can be used in the same way. I need more proof: please produce. |
| PS in the Proz question, Yves Georges, a native French squeaker, seems never to have seen this "intransitive" use of "produire", and advances tentatively that it *could* be shorthand for "produire un document". French being closer to Latin than English, this kind of looseness regarding the presence of an accusative object seems much less likely. |
| It's also absent from TLFi. HOWEVER... it is also very convincing! In terms of context, I mean... so, hmmm. It'd be nice to see an instance of its use, or some confirmation in a legal lexicon! |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
ph-b (X)
: See discussion box.
2 hrs
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merci and thanks.
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| agree |
FPC
: Personally I agree. My full analysis in the comments
22 hrs
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grazie, mnerci and thanks.
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| agree |
Daryo
: makes perfect sense / fits perfectly // in this ST there is an implied bit: "produire" = "produire les documents prouvant le bien-fondé de leurs créances" (OR the quoted text was truncated - still this is the only interpretation that makes sense!)
1 day 13 hrs
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hvalo lepo. merci and thanks.
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: Yes, seen and translated before
4 days
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Thanks and merci, Chris.
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| agree |
Adam Warren
14 days
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Thanks and merci, Adam.
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Discussion
The first example has an unstated direct object (mucus) and the "dictionary" [sic] is unsubstantiated as it does not give a single example of "produce" used intransitively (produce something, fruit and a show)
There are far better examples of verbs which people could debate are transitive or not like "rule" in sentences like "The King rules and his subjects obey" but produce is not one of them.
And I found this:
(transitive & intransitive) Someone or something produces something when they make it or create it or make it come out. This tree produces a lot of fruit every year. He produced the paper out of his bag. (acting) If you produce a play, TV show, or movie, you are its main business manager.
produce - Simple English Wiktionary
Adrian and people who have voted for his answer are arguing that an intransitive use in both English and French legalese is indeed possible. English intransitive use seems marginal and not specifically legal (e.g. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/produce ) and I've seen nothing to validate Adrian's claim re French.
To omit a following direct object from this citation, if that is the case, would be an error by the person citing, and the mandatory practice is then to use a noun or pronoun in square brackets: "« ... le pouvoir de représenter les créanciers ayant produit [les créances] entre leurs mains ou auprès de la juridiction étrangère », et avaient ...". To fail to do that, in French, and leave a transitive verb hanging in the air without its object, would be a bourde flagrante. That's because the hanging verb otherwise instantly creates a sense of bafflement in the reader ("ayant produit quoi ???").
But that wouldn't be so if an intransitive use is possible.
I don't see how this can be some sort of Anglicism as it's pretty clear that the English speakers here don't accept "produce" as an intransitive verb and we haven't found any clear examples of "produce" being used in such a way either.
On the contrary, a few of us (me included) rightly or wrongly, believe that the obligatory direct object does indeed occur later in the passage.
Or is it? Later in that text we see "Invitation à produire une créance...". So is your phrase implicitly transitive (as you suggest), rather than intransitive, in fact? Again, the thorny question must arise, to wit whether the phrase you cite is actually grammatically acceptable French and, in the negative, whether this actually might represent some sort of anglicism.
I have no parti pris about that: it'd be helpful to see proof that such usage existed in the 1890s (when I assume that nasty nasty Anglosaxonisms had not yet done much mischief). I don't believe that TLFi claims to cover all specialist French legalese peculiarities, but it is not insignificant that there is zero intransitive use of produire to be found there.
By now I confess I haven't the foggiest. I returned the text to the client explaining the conundrum.
From
Circulaire du 17 mars 2003 relative à l'entrée en vigueur du règlement n° 1346/2000 du 29 mai 2000 relatif aux procédures d'insolvabilité
En outre, dans le cas où deux procédures sont ouvertes, tout créancier peut produire à la procédure principale et à la procédure secondaire (art. 32, § 1).
...
2.5.2. La faculté du syndic de produire dans toute autre procédure
...
Enfin, il convient de rappeler que lorsque plusieurs procédures sont ouvertes, un créancier peut produire dans chacune d'elles (art. 32, § 2).
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000000789000
This question was posed to seek clarification about whether produire in French legalese can or cannot be used in an intransitive way.
An explanation corroborating Adrian's answer to an insufficient degree is here: https://www.dictionnaire-juridique.com/definition/production... : "la 'production' consiste dans le dépôt, par une partie, au dossier d'une procédure d'un document contenant la preuve des droits auxquels elle prétend. On dit ainsi 'produire un contrat'.". TRANSITIVE.
Where then in the ST phrase is the object of this transitive verb? Or, alternatively, where is any proof that French produire can be used in an intransitive way? To repeat ad nauseam, casual omission of a direct object when you feel like it doesn't work in French grammar.
The question of whether the author of the ST (or of the quoted phrase therein) made a mistake remains open.
Not the first time it happened. Why make the translator's job too easy, where would be the fun?
This is pretty much my take on it too when I said yesterday that "produire" is not intransitive
Some verbs in French and English can be intransitive (with an implied direct object or a vague direct object) or transitive but "produire" or "produce" is not one of them.
If you want a simple example of such an transitive/intransitive verb, "know" is such a verb
I know. (vaguely referring to a situation or how to do something) ✔️
I know you. (direct object - I think the French would say "dative") ✔️
This is not possible with "produire"
They produce. ❌
They produce components. ✔️
The sentence structure is odd for a couple of reasons, but in particular because the noun phrase "une déclaration de créance en leur nom" functions as object for the actions of two separate *subjects*:
a) les *créanciers* ayant produits entre leurs mains [that's the hands of the liquidators] une declaration de créance en leur nom [it's not stated here because it appears only at the end of the whole sentence]
b) les *liquidateurs* [qui] tenaient qualité pour adresser au représentant des créanciers [...] une déclaration de créance en leur nom
Quickly translated it reads like that to me:
"The liquidators / had power to represent the creditors who had produced before (or given) them in the foreign jurisdiction proof of their credit / AND / [the liquidators] were qualified to submit this selfsame proof of the credit to the creditor's representatives in the French jurisdiction"
/ slashes separate parts of the sentence for clarity/parsing
I've already preempted and answered all your questions in my post yesterday, includin your "lurking suspicion" (see my reworking of the offending sentence). Read again if necessary.
No need to add anything at this stage, including gratuitously insulting people or looking down on colleagues. [EDIT: the last part of this sentence no longer applies as comments on Emmanuella and Adrian have now disappeared.]
I think this French legalese intransitive usage, if in fact it does exist outside Adrian's imagination, may be an anglicism. I.e. enough francophone jurists working in the UK, and/or anglophone jurists working in France, may have infected French legalese with a barbaric intransitive use of a French transitive verb!
The slight problem for me is this: in English to understand "produce" as meaning "prove a claim/debt" poses no real problem. It sounds like plausible legalese.
But French grammar is far more rigid (because of its greater closeness to Latin), so I wonder how it feels to a French-speaker to see a verb like produire used without any accusative object? Doesn't it feel quite strange to you?
Because the English usage which Adrian explains is not merely assuming an implied but unstated accusative object, i.e. "produce something". Instead, it is using "produce" as an intransitive verb, one with no accusative object at all.
I just wonder whether such a genuinely intransitive usage of produire really does exist in French. Adrian doesn't actually produce any proof of that. I suspect the French is implying an unstated accusative object. But if so, what is it? That's the question I have for you as a French-squeaker.
And the same applies to produire. It "can't really be" anything else, unless the source text has not been copied accurately or has been altered somehow.
Is produire here really intransitive? Isn't it 'ayant produit..... une déclaration de créance en leur nom ».
According to CNRTL, "DR. ADMIN. Présenter une pièce, un document, à l'appui de sa cause..
According to Cornu, " 2. (en justice) Faire état en justice d'un élément de preuve ; se dit surtout aujourd'hui des pièces, notamment des attestations (art. 139, 142 et 200 du CPC)... 3. ...
No mention anywhere (usual sources) of any intransitive use of produire. Incidentally, never read or heard any either.
Anyway, if you parse the text as follows:
- Saisie…, la Cour de cassation a également énoncé que
- les liquidateurs tenaient du jugement étranger… le pouvoir de représenter...
- ayant produit entre leurs mains ou auprès de la juridiction étrangère
- une déclaration de créance en leur nom
- et avaient... qualité pour [l']adresser au représentant des créanciers nommé dans la procédure ouverte en France.
Sending the object to the end of the sentence in the source text is odd and doesn't sound French at all, but this makes sense here, unless the source text is garbled, bits have been left out or some or all of the inverted commas shouldn't be there (which is why I deleted them all in my parsing).