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augmentée des prescriptions légales
ischémie consommée
Aug 31, 2022 12:37
1 yr ago
52 viewers *
French term

Soit notifié

French to English Bus/Financial Law (general)
Service to debtors in connection with a forced sale of a property

"
NOTIFICATION DU PROJET DE DISTRIBUTION
L'AN DEUX MILLE VINGT DEUX ET LE
À LA DEMANDE DE :
La Société AAA ...
CREANCIER POURSUIVANT
Ayant pour Avocat Maître BBB ... qui est constitué sur la poursuite de saisie immobilière dont s'agit et au cabinet duquel il est fait élection de domicile.
Soit notifié et, en tête du présent acte, laissé copie à :
Monsieur CCC, né le 19 avril 1962 à ...
OU ETANT ET PARLANT A :
Madame DDD, ...
OU ETANT ET PARLANT A :
Du projet de distribution amiable du prix provenant de la vente de l'immeuble suivant :
Dans un ensemble immobilier exploité en Résidence de Tourisme
..."

CCC and DDD are the debtors, as may be obvious. AAA is the company which lent on the property.

Wondering what the English legalese might be. "Be it served ... and at the start hereof, left a copy with..." ?

Grammatically this fits the two-word expression. But I'm not sure that it fits into the rest of this set expression, or that it is an English legalese expression at all, let alone for this context. What might fit?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +6 The parties (herewith/attached/above) shall be served
3 -1 TAKE NOTICE of service effected (herewith); Order for service
References
https://www.ulvjusticecenter.org/how-to-...

Discussion

Emmanuella Sep 1, 2022:
@ AllegroTrans - No typo for sure. In any case, it's not important. It would mean the same thing.
AllegroTrans Aug 31, 2022:
Could there be a typo Should perhaps "laissé copie à" be " laisser copie à"?
Seems a weird change of tenses, but then we are in the realms of weird usage
AllegroTrans Aug 31, 2022:
@ Mpoma Yes, exactly. I have translated many summonses with this "ou étant et parlant" formula which forms part of the bailiff's endorsement that he has served the document. And I have the same impression as Conor - that this weird ancient wording varies from lawyer to lawyer. Also remember that France has "extrajudicial" process which is often drafted by or for bailiffs, i.e. not for court use. Here again, I see variations between the formulas used.
Mpoma (asker) Aug 31, 2022:
If it's "shall be served"... (which I'm beginning to think it is) ... then I theoretise that the "OU ETANT ET PARLANT A", both of which, I should have mentioned, have a 3- or 4-line space under them, are probably for the bailiff to fill in when they are serving this document on the individuals.

That way the "Shall be served" could potentially go with a past tense for OU ETANT ET PARLANT A...
Emmanuella Aug 31, 2022:
D'après le lien que j'ai posté , il pourrait s'agir d'une tournure fort ancienne.
Myriam Seers Aug 31, 2022:
@ Emmanuella C'est possible en vieux français si on se réfère à une action qui s'est déjà produite dans le passé, ou qui est en train de se produire ? Peut-être que oui ? Assez étrange mais comme le dit Conor, ces vieux actes le sont.
Myriam Seers Aug 31, 2022:
No you're absolutely right, these constructions are absolutely absurd, and no doubt also right that these bailiff types have different sets of archaic notices. Perhaps each notary in the 1700s had a different weird formula, and then they got passed down apprentice to apprentice?
@Emmanuella, very interesting indeed!
The other problem this poses for translation, of course, is even if all the lawyers and judges and government officials in source language know what it means, it doesn't translate literally at all, and translates poorly sense for sense.
How does one translate "know all men by these presents" into French, for example? You could say "Que tous les hommes connaissent de ce présent acte" but that is both silly and doesn't mean anything relevant. Anyway, raises interesting issues in translation theory.
Emmanuella Aug 31, 2022:
A la demande de ...soit notifié...et laissé (e) copie ... du projet ...
En vieux français, c'est plausible.
Myriam Seers Aug 31, 2022:
No you're absolutely right, these constructions are absolutely absurd, and no doubt also right that these bailiff types have different sets of archaic notices. Perhaps each notary in the 1700s had a different weird formula, and then they got passed down apprentice to apprentice?
@Emmanuella, very interesting indeed!
The other problem this poses for translation, of course, is even if all the lawyers and judges and government officials in source language know what it means, it doesn't translate literally at all, and translates poorly sense for sense.
How does one translate "know all men by these presents" into French, for example? You could say "Que tous les hommes connaissent de ce présent acte" but that is both silly and doesn't mean anything relevant. Anyway, raises interesting issues in translation theory.
Myriam Seers Aug 31, 2022:
No you're absolutely right, these constructions are absolutely absurd, and no doubt also right that these bailiff types have different sets of archaic notices. Perhaps each notary in the 1700s had a different weird formula, and then they got passed down apprentice to apprentice?
@Emmanuella, very interesting indeed!
The other problem this poses for translation, of course, is even if all the lawyers and judges and government officials in source language know what it means, it doesn't translate literally at all, and translates poorly sense for sense.
How does one translate "know all men by these presents" into French, for example? You could say "Que tous les hommes connaissent de ce présent acte" but that is both silly and doesn't mean anything relevant. Anyway, raises interesting issues in translation theory.
Conor McAuley Aug 31, 2022:
Time considerations For me, it has to be "shall be", before and after service of the document.

These documents are simply signed, stamped and dated (often another stamp) when they have been served, and details of service written in at the relevant point in the document.
I've been on the receiving end once or twice, that's what I recall.
Conor McAuley Aug 31, 2022:
To Myriam Mpoma says that he has done thousands of these documents, and I'm sure he has.

But I've done a good few summonses, and this is the first time I've seen "Soit notifié" (unless the other time or times I've been "in the zone"), so the whole problem with this ancient guff is that each lawyer seems to have a different set of ancient guff to spout.

Perhaps I'm being a bit unfair with my per word/per page suggestion, and maybe I'm confusing repetition with legal stylistics or rhetoric, the grand old lost art of rhetoric (legal arguments in this subject area)?
Emmanuella Aug 31, 2022:
Interesting!
https://www.dauphijuris.fr/redaction-d-une-assignation--ment...
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/423...
Myriam Seers Aug 31, 2022:
@ Mpoma If your intepretation of the entire context is that they were in fact served and this is the bailiff confiming that fact, I would translate it simply as as "were served", though that is a meaning- and context-based translation since, as already discussed, the subjonctif impersonnel would usually not bear this meaning.
Myriam Seers Aug 31, 2022:
Oh I realize there is no specific time obligation, I was just responding to Conor about how one would write the same thing if trying to write it clearly the first time.
Mpoma (asker) Aug 31, 2022:
@Myriam I don't think it can mean that: it says "A la demande de AAA...". AAA is the party issuing the notification. There's nothing whatsoever suggesting that AAA is under any time-related obligation.
Myriam Seers Aug 31, 2022:
@ Conor Re your comment about whether lawyers get paid by the word, it's actually the opposite phenomenon in this instance. They are copying verbatim forms they have used since the 1700s and everyone is too afraid to change them. The lawyers paid the big bucks are the ones who do that less because they have the time and guts to actually write something new :)
In this case, if we were to write it in English in the first place (rather than translate), and wanted to write plainly and clearly, we could say: "AAA must serve CCC and DDD with the document by September 5, 2022". That's all it means.
Mpoma (asker) Aug 31, 2022:
@Myriam I *think* Adrian has got the right idea.

This document is really "effected" in the present, and (I *think*) that the meaning of Où étant et parlant still translates as "Where I attended and spoke in person".

The bailiff finds the unfortunate addressees, hands them a piece of paper and says various words, and can then say "I attended (got hold of them) and spoke to them in person", which is an essential part of valid service of a document.

But it *is* worded in a way I'm not used to, so I have some doubts: Où étant et parlant may possibly have a future meaning: "Where [someone] shall attend and speak in person to...".
Myriam Seers Aug 31, 2022:
Agree with Connor For this particular document, I would translate as "The following persons shall be served...".

@Mpoma I don't think this is the bailiff's confirmation of service, it appears to be an order that service be completed (in the future). Use of subjunctive "soit" means it's a direct order: do this (or "let this be done"). Hence, "shall be served" when translated to English sense for sense.
Does that make sense with the context of your document? For example, is the bailiff citing a court order?
Emmanuella Aug 31, 2022:
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-patents-tra...
Emmanuella Aug 31, 2022:
J'imagine bien que vous connaissez les termes utilisés.
Dans ce cas, on a utilisé le subjonctif 'impersonnel' . J'ignore pourquoi et si c'est correct.
Mpoma (asker) Aug 31, 2022:
The usual thing... with this sort of notification is that the bailiff says

"J'ai
Bailiff Bailiff Mr Bailiff, of the firm Bailiff, Bailiff and Bailiff, dans la résidence de Bailiff-sur-Loire, blah blah blah...
notifié et, en tête du présent acte, laissé copie à :
M. Quelquun Jean-Davide, who owes La Grande Banque un tas de pognon..."

Grammatically the above formula makes some sense: "J'ai ... notifié et laissé...".

This time, "J'ai" is completely absent. Instead of which we have this formulation which does not appear to make much sense.
Barbara Cochran, MFA Aug 31, 2022:
Duly Informed/Notified I think the purpose of the notification is to provide pertinent information/documentation related to the legal responsibilities of those who are in charge of what is referred in it as "the plan" (projet).
Mpoma (asker) Aug 31, 2022:
Thanks ... but unfortunately I have no idea what point you're making. Neither Soit notifié nor notifier et laisser copie appear on that page.

Am I aware that "notifier et laisser copie" is a set expression? Yes I am. I have translated thousands of documents containing this expression.
Emmanuella Aug 31, 2022:
Notifier et laisser copie à... du projet de distribution amiable.
Emmanuella Aug 31, 2022:
https://www.village-justice.com/articles/Redaction-notificat...

Proposed translations

+6
52 mins
French term (edited): Soit notifié (et, en tête du présent acte)
Selected

The parties (herewith/attached/above) shall be served

Your previous preference as regards "en tête":

https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/547...


shall be served – EU:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="shall be served" summons ...

shall be served – UK:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="shall be served" summons ...


I don't see any reason to nail it exactly, and I think the chances of doing so are slim, unless your namesake or one of the legal gang have an idea.
Plain English will do just fine in this instance, is my feeling.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2022-08-31 14:09:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Yes, some mangling or overwriting going on. Do lawyers really get paid by the page or word? It certainly seems so a lot of the time.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2022-08-31 14:10:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And I have great respect for lawyers, I don't accept the usual stereotypes about them.
Note from asker:
Thanks. Whoops, totally forgot that solution for "en tête des présentes". Probably better. I'm suspecting a mangling here: how can you have "soit notifié" and "laissé copie" in the same phrase. The meaning (of the usual phrase) is also past "I LEFT a copy...", "I ATTENDED and SPOKE in person..."
Peer comment(s):
agree Myriam Seers
36 mins
Thanks Myriam!
agree FPC : Agreed, but maybe it's the "parties herebelow" (the people cited immediately underneath) who are to be served and notified?
6 hrs
Thanks FPC!
agree Anastasia Kalantzi
9 hrs
Thanks Anastasia!
agree Michael Meskers
1 day 10 hrs
Thanks Michael! (Edit) / Looking at your profile (impressive!), that UK footie talk is maybe lost on you, but I can assure you it's funny. Does the GOAT vote Republican? is the best I can do in State-side banter.
agree tradu-grace
4 days
Thanks tradu-grace!
agree AllegroTrans : or "let the parties named below be served"
5 days
Thanks AT!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-1
1 hr

TAKE NOTICE of service effected (herewith); Order for service

TAKE NOTICE is often routinley capitalis/zed

Effect is notarial- or litigator-speak, usually mixed up by Daily Mail commentators with 'affect'.

Seems cognate with soit-communiqué: order of (for) discovery, Navarre. ... Notification (notice) to proceed with a prosecution, FHS Bridge.

BTW, order for service doesn't mean restaurant service with the wrong orders delivered by pidgin-English speaking waitering staff, usually in London.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 days (2022-09-14 06:04:36 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

I surmise you have (implicity) picked this answer. That apart, I am afraid your supposition of long, lubricated lunches is wrong. As a teetotaller, I spent many an hour appearing in default summonses (debt cases) in the County Courts in West London and on St. Martin's Lane in Westminster, or personal loan vs. outright gift cases at the Royal Courts of Justice on the Strand. Otherwise, I helped draf writs for my private-investigator and process-server step-father in the South of England, including in bulk on 'illegal' travellers' encampments.
Example sentence:

Service of notice—(a) Except where otherwise provided by these Rules, or ordered by the Court, all summons, notices other documents required to be given to or served on a party or person, who resides within the jurisdiction of this Court, shall be serve

Serving on a known old address is unlikely to *effect* valid service

Reference:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/2546629-lordonnance-de-soit-communiqué-aux-fins-de-règlement.html

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english/law-general/1324143-you-will-please-take-notice-that.html

Note from asker:
Thanks, this seems to work. But you betray your origins again: first it was the (now defunct) Hot Pot (Hotchpot) restaurants in central London. I begin to suspect that in the course of your stellar career you probably spent more time over long, well-lubricated lunches in central London restaurants than actually declaiming Ciceronianly in the courts.
Peer comment(s):
disagree AllegroTrans : No, this is most probably the bailiff speaking and stating who he served or attempted to serve, not a command. The "take notice" part, where used, comes after the bailiff endorsement and is usually headed "ATTENTION" or "TRES IMPORTANT"
2 hrs
The soit works as an imperative, no matter the positioning in the writ, and the asker suggests s/he has chosen this answer.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

Something went wrong...
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