Jan 19, 2006 16:42
18 yrs ago
English term
gender question: she or it
English
Other
Ships, Sailing, Maritime
I am doing a translation from the Spanish re a tourist/training ship. I am trying to avoid the pronoun as far as I can but it is not always possible. I know boats are traditionally referred to as "she", but is this still in use? I don't want the outside edge of the PC debate, but simply to know whether it is still usual/acceptable to refer to a ship as she/her ... any thoughts?
thanks all, MJ
thanks all, MJ
Responses
4 +21 | either or | CMJ_Trans (X) |
3 +5 | as far as I know t is still usual to refer to a ship as she/her | Angie Garbarino |
4 +2 | Would you call a lady it? | Jo Macdonald |
5 | See below... | William [Bill] Gray |
4 | sailors say 'she', most people 'it' | sergey (X) |
4 -1 | they | Petra Molenaar |
Responses
+21
1 min
Selected
either or
I remember not long ago reading an article that stated that the "she" usage was now obsolete and that "it" would be fine. That said, there remain two schools of thought.. A generation thing
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "wow, I seem to have stirred up quite a controversy here. I find myself agreeing wtih each different answer, but I mostly agree with Richard Benham's comments, even though I also appreciate the romance of Jo's answer. However, I my text I think 'it' is more appropriate - she might be a little affected."
+5
3 mins
as far as I know t is still usual to refer to a ship as she/her
.................
Peer comment(s):
agree |
oxygen4u
: Yep. It's a "girl"!! :)
2 mins
|
:)
|
|
agree |
Sol
: Yes, for boats and cars. But it depends on who's talking. Someone who owns or works on a boat is more likely to call the boat SHE.
4 mins
|
:) ciao !!!
|
|
agree |
BrigitteHilgner
: Being interested in ships, I read quite a lot about them - they are usually addressed as "she".
18 mins
|
:)
|
|
disagree |
Richard Benham
: It is certainly not "usual" any more. (Sol) It never was for cars. and (BrigitteH), if you are in the habit of "addressing" ships, you need help!
24 mins
|
I specified " as far as I know" I am NOT Engish mother tongue, but I see I am not the only one and I also see you need to review the kudoz rules about politeness, why so uptight with Brigitte?
|
|
agree |
Jo Macdonald
: Yep, a ship is definitely a lady
26 mins
|
:)
|
|
disagree |
Tony M
: Sorry, but it certainly isn't 'usual' any more, though in certain, very specific contexts, it may add a touch of charm... It's often 'insider jargon', to be used warily..
32 mins
|
Ok dusty you are the mother tongue not me:) I said " as far as I know" :) bye bye
|
|
agree |
Veronica Prpic Uhing
56 mins
|
:)
|
|
agree |
conejo
: I agree with Sol's comment.
1 hr
|
:)
|
|
neutral |
cmwilliams (X)
: I wouldn't say it's usual - maybe in certain cases, but depends on context.
2 hrs
|
:)
|
|
neutral |
Balasubramaniam L.
: It. With air travel taking precedence, the romance associated with ship journey is over. There is no more a need to see a vessel in geneder terms.
10 hrs
|
I told * as far as I know* not for sure
|
|
agree |
Lingo Pros
: Richard, you surely don't know any man owning a classic car! They'lll be offended if you call it "it"! :-)
1 day 3 hrs
|
wow ^_^ yes :)
|
-1
1 hr
they
Hello,
I recently had a long discussion about this, and nowadays "they" apparently can also be used in singular form.
I recently had a long discussion about this, and nowadays "they" apparently can also be used in singular form.
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Richard Benham
: Not for ships. Only for a person whose sex is unknown or left unspecified.
2 hrs
|
4 hrs
See below...
I guess this topic will be argued long and hard for years, especially since we have now moved beyond the feminist movement into the "need for a masculinist movement"!!
But this link will give you both something serious about the topic, and something to laugh at as well. What a great combination!
Enjoy!
But this link will give you both something serious about the topic, and something to laugh at as well. What a great combination!
Enjoy!
+2
17 hrs
Would you call a lady it?
Hi MJ,
I’ve been on the water all my life. My father was chief engineer in the navy before working with the team that commissioned the first Polaris submarines.
We used to live on a narrow boat called “Mistress Masham” where my brother was born, and mum swore that Dad’s yacht “Antic Witch” had it in for her from the start.
My mother still tells of the time Antic Witch threw her overboard in Sharpness dock.
When she surfaced Mum said, “She pushed me.” That’s despite the fact that mum was always a landlubber at heart, and had used to say things like “it’s a nice boat” which is perhaps why she ended up in the water. After all, calling a lady “it” will not get you into her good books in a hurry. I also saw Antic Witch throw a fit of jealousy; refusing to go into neutral or even slow down just because Dad waved to this new woman in his life who was standing on the pier.
Believe me, ships and boats are female, and very much alive.
To me calling a ship “it” sounds really wrong and cold to the ship and anyone who has anything to do with her. I can only really think of a few cases when I’d use it. Perhaps if talking about a boat on the horizon, “That boat looks like it’s got wind in its sails” or something like that, although there is still nothing wrong with she/her in that context. I can imagine using it if you’re really detached, or talking about vessels in general of course, or as someone who has nothing to do with any one in particular.
So I do appreciate that some people will call ships it, but if you’re talking about a specific ship there is absolutely nothing wrong with using she, or her name. On the other hand I can think of several cases when using “it” will make you sound like a landlubber talking about their truck.
Here are a few examples of calling ships she or it. You decide whether one sounds wrong or right:
It is his ship, and he is its captain.
She is his ship, and he is her captain
The ship will be leaving at noon; it’s going to the Bahamas,
The ship will be sailing at noon; she’ll be visiting the Bahamas,
Look at the tattered flag on it’s front
Look at the tattered flag on her bows
It’s going backwards
She’s going astern
It’s going fast
She’s doing 20 knots
Wind the little boats down, it won’t float
Man the lifeboats, she’s going down
I’m going on a cruise on this big luxury liner, it should be nice because it’s a beautiful ship.
I’m going on a cruise on this big luxury liner, it should be nice because she’s a beautiful ship.
This is its last trip.
This is her last voyage.
The Santa Maria is a fine ship, it was built
The Santa Maria is a fine ship, she was built
I’m sure you can find many more references of people still using she/her today, or getting away with it.
If you’re translating a guide/promo for a Spanish tourist/training ship I can see absolutely nothing wrong with using she. Would the captain, crew, owners, and passengers rather you called their ship it or she? You decide, it’s your translation, but remember: she is his ship, and he is her captain.
I’ve been on the water all my life. My father was chief engineer in the navy before working with the team that commissioned the first Polaris submarines.
We used to live on a narrow boat called “Mistress Masham” where my brother was born, and mum swore that Dad’s yacht “Antic Witch” had it in for her from the start.
My mother still tells of the time Antic Witch threw her overboard in Sharpness dock.
When she surfaced Mum said, “She pushed me.” That’s despite the fact that mum was always a landlubber at heart, and had used to say things like “it’s a nice boat” which is perhaps why she ended up in the water. After all, calling a lady “it” will not get you into her good books in a hurry. I also saw Antic Witch throw a fit of jealousy; refusing to go into neutral or even slow down just because Dad waved to this new woman in his life who was standing on the pier.
Believe me, ships and boats are female, and very much alive.
To me calling a ship “it” sounds really wrong and cold to the ship and anyone who has anything to do with her. I can only really think of a few cases when I’d use it. Perhaps if talking about a boat on the horizon, “That boat looks like it’s got wind in its sails” or something like that, although there is still nothing wrong with she/her in that context. I can imagine using it if you’re really detached, or talking about vessels in general of course, or as someone who has nothing to do with any one in particular.
So I do appreciate that some people will call ships it, but if you’re talking about a specific ship there is absolutely nothing wrong with using she, or her name. On the other hand I can think of several cases when using “it” will make you sound like a landlubber talking about their truck.
Here are a few examples of calling ships she or it. You decide whether one sounds wrong or right:
It is his ship, and he is its captain.
She is his ship, and he is her captain
The ship will be leaving at noon; it’s going to the Bahamas,
The ship will be sailing at noon; she’ll be visiting the Bahamas,
Look at the tattered flag on it’s front
Look at the tattered flag on her bows
It’s going backwards
She’s going astern
It’s going fast
She’s doing 20 knots
Wind the little boats down, it won’t float
Man the lifeboats, she’s going down
I’m going on a cruise on this big luxury liner, it should be nice because it’s a beautiful ship.
I’m going on a cruise on this big luxury liner, it should be nice because she’s a beautiful ship.
This is its last trip.
This is her last voyage.
The Santa Maria is a fine ship, it was built
The Santa Maria is a fine ship, she was built
I’m sure you can find many more references of people still using she/her today, or getting away with it.
If you’re translating a guide/promo for a Spanish tourist/training ship I can see absolutely nothing wrong with using she. Would the captain, crew, owners, and passengers rather you called their ship it or she? You decide, it’s your translation, but remember: she is his ship, and he is her captain.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Angie Garbarino
: wonderful explanation,!!!!! then despite the very unpolite disagre (1) we can see above, I was not so wrong :)
10 hrs
|
Hi Anglioletta. Yep I think your answer is fine, CMJ’s too to a certain extent, but not "she usage is now obsolete and "it" is fine.” I couldn’t get all I wanted to say in a comment though. ;-)
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agree |
Mwananchi
: I am convinced, best wishes to Ms Masham
1 day 2 hrs
|
Thanks Mwananchi, last I heard she was being used as a floating lab by a local school on the Trent and Mersey canal.
|
1 day 5 hrs
sailors say 'she', most people 'it'
some people use 'she' for cars, motorbikes etc; sailors often use 'she' for boats and ships (but most other people use 'it)
e.g.
the ship's struck a rock. she's sinking!
'practical english usage' by michael swan, oxford uni press 2005
so, i presume you can use both she and it in your text depending on who is saying it :-)
e.g.
the ship's struck a rock. she's sinking!
'practical english usage' by michael swan, oxford uni press 2005
so, i presume you can use both she and it in your text depending on who is saying it :-)
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