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This question was closed without grading. Reason: Answer found elsewhere
Mar 29, 2022 00:54
2 yrs ago
85 viewers *
French term

sans merci

French to English Other Tourism & Travel Visiting Mont-Tremblant National Park (Quebec)
A talk is given at the Park entitled "Sans merci pour le cerf de Virginie." The English site for the Park keeps this title in French. The text I'm translating is about visiting the Park and includes the following (under the heading Causeries):

SANS MERCI POUR LE CERF DE VIRGINIE
Parmi les grands mammifères du parc, le cerf de Virginie est sans aucun doute le plus facile à observer. Ces nombreuses rencontres font beaucoup d’heureux, alors pourquoi être ***sans merci pour le cerf de Virginie*** ?

TIA
Proposed translations (English)
3 +4 why then are we so merciless to these animals?
4 +2 merciless
4 insensitive/callous
3 GUNNING FOR THE CERF DE VIRGINIE
4 -1 Without being grateful for the cerf de Virginie
4 -1 So why not give a break to the cert de Virginie?
4 -2 why then having no mercy for the Virginia deer
References
Parmi les grands mammifères du parc, le cerf de Virginie est sans aucun doute le plus facile à observer. Ces nombreuses rencontres font beaucoup d’heureux, alors pourquoi être sans merci pour le cerf de Virginie ?

Discussion

ph-b (X) Mar 29, 2022:
Carol, (Oops - this should have been posted just before my post above.) That's right. I like your "so, why/what... ?". I realise the question has only two words and that the suggested translation should limit itself to the question "as asked" as much as possible. But with the explanation box, we can expand a bit and put both the requested term(s) and the suggested translation(s) back into context. As an example, using one of your suggestions, I would agree with : "[So w]hat is our problem with the white-tailed deer?" or possibly "[What then] is our problem...".
ph-b (X) Mar 29, 2022:
Carol - Hi again! :-) Not sure I understand your last post re "Indignant". In my comment to your answer below, I wrote that I didn't agree with your statement, in the explanation box: (quote) "The writer is clearly indignant about the treatment/culling (?) of these much-loved / beautiful and probably gentle deer" (end of quote). I don't think the writer is indignant at all - if that's what you meant.
AllegroTrans Mar 29, 2022:
At the end of the day This is tourist literature and the kind of precision needed, e.g. for legal or medical text, is not necessary. The translator's aim should be to arrive at the sort of lingo one would see in English tourist blurb, rather than a stilted rendering.
Barbara Cochran, MFA Mar 29, 2022:
Don't Kill Bambi... ...was a popular expression here in the US, after a book came out about how a young boy who was learning how to hunt echoed that sentiment. "Bambi" was a very popular, even iconic, American animated film for kids about a baby deer, I think put out by Disney Studios, during the last century. Others have expanded on that sentiment as can be seen in the expression "Don't kill Bambi-blame the mother." Good argument for using the birth control pellets, instead.
Carol Gullidge Mar 29, 2022:
@ ph-b - Hi again! Just seen yr remark re "Indignant" in your comment!

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment, we MUST remember that Translators must NEVER add or imply anything that isn't actually said in the ST, however strongly we might feel. The word indignant does NOT appear, and so it would be incredibly bad practice to add it. If indeed, that is what you are suggesting!
In fact, I see that one or two of the other Answers proposed have translated it as if the term had been included in the Question. This is incorrect, of course, unless the Answerers had in fact added that phrase to the term being asked. Which they didn't - not yet, at least And in any case, I'm pretty sure that the Asker wouldn't need any help with that phrase!
Carol Gullidge Mar 29, 2022:
@ ph-b I do get your point! However I was strictly translating the term requested (between the asterisks).
If I understand correctly, the term you feel is missing is "alors pourquoi être ", which - had it been asked! - I would have rendered as something like "So, why are we gunning for..., So what is our quarrel with..., What is the problem with..., etc, etc.

However, "alors pourquoi être..." was not included in the Asker's term to be translated; I imagine this was because they needed no help with this part! Generally, it isn't up to translators to add any implications or suppositions of their own to the source text. If I had wanted to include this, then I should have added that phrase to the Term to be translated. This is easily done, although I see that none of the other Answerers so far have done this either, so, according to my criteria, they shouldn't really have alluded to it in their Answers.

But I do agree that a few of my suggestions are a little wishy-washy! At the time, nobody else seemed to have anything much to suggest!
ph-b (X) Mar 29, 2022:
Carol, All I meant was that it wasn't clear to me that answers or posts in the discussion before mine were written in a way that clearly reflected this opposition within the French sentence, which to me is central to understanding and translating it. Thank you for reassuring me. :-)
Carol Gullidge Mar 29, 2022:
@ ph-b I do get the point you're making. However, to be quite honest, I imagined people had picked this up, but perhaps it seems too obvious to really be worth highlighting. But then again...
Tony M Mar 29, 2022:
@ Cadastre I totally understand what you are saying — but I'm not sure we ought to use the word 'relentless', to me it reads oddly without further qualification: I don't think it is good to say someone can 'be relentless' and leave it at that: 'be relentless in pursuing a goal', of course; or the campaign to cull them might be relentless.
ph-b (X) Mar 29, 2022:
Here (https://www.sepaq.com/resources/docs/pq/mot/mot_decouverte_2... there is a contrast within the sentence: they're saying that "a lot of people are happy meeting these deer, so why, if these animals are so popular, do you think we have to be so relentless and cull them? This is what this talk will explain." No-one here seems to have picked up this opposition so far.
Samuël Buysschaert Mar 29, 2022:
A bit of extra info if that helps:

"CONSERVATION FOR TOMORROW
THE OVER-CONFIDENT WHITE-TAILED DEER
Impressed by their beauty, thousands of visitors look to approach the white-tailed
deers with gestures or food, actions that significantly modifiy their animal behaviour.
Once a shy creature, this animal has lost its fear of humans. May a deer that has
become so familiar with humans learn to fear them once again? We attempt to
answer this question to establish a plan of action. Learn more on this topic at our
Sans merci pour le cerf de Virginie talk."
https://officialmonttremblant.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07...
Bourth Mar 29, 2022:
relentless I gather the campaign 'against' these white-tailed deer has been going on for some years (telling people not to feed them, saying how many people are killed in collisions because the deer are less afraid of humans and have changed their environment, etc.). I assume most people know what the issue is, so "Why be so relentless about the deer?" ?
Tony M Mar 29, 2022:
@ Asker I think it depends on the stance of the writer on this subject. I believe Phil has the right idea with 'cull' — but it all depends on whether or not you need / want to retain the rhetorical question? And also, whether the writer is seeking to argue against it — or then goes on to justify and explain it?
"Why not have pity on the...?" "Why no pity for the...?" etc. Or perhaps something like "Why is this cull necessary?"
I think you need to be guided by what follows in your text...
Barbara Cochran, MFA Mar 29, 2022:
"Targeted(for)", possibly "it's a matter of life or death (for)"... https://context.reverso.net/translation/french-english/sans ...

Targeted deer populations: https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/compass/2020/07/22/targeted-deer...

They have done a lot of damage to the shrubs on private property that lines the Metro Park that extends throughout Cuyahoga County, Ohio. One option that was proposed was to actually lay out birth control pellets for the deer to consume. Other property owners wanted sharpshooters to kill them and then to have the venison donated to homeless and battered women's shelter. Since I live out in the country and have seen so many of these beautiful and graceful creatures in my backyard and sprinting through the fields down the road, I would much rather see the birth control option used.
philgoddard Mar 29, 2022:
If that's the case, and it sounds likely, You could just translate "être sans merci pour" as "cull".

I wonder if this particular choice of words is a cultural reference, or maybe it's because they rhyme.
Marco Solinas Mar 29, 2022:
Background If this is in Longueil, Québec, it refers probably to the plan to cull a proliferating dear population that is causing a great deal of damage to the vegetation of a local park. The plan has generated controversy and attracted a great deal of media attention. See, for example, https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/longueuil-deer-cull-...

Proposed translations

-2
10 hrs
French term (edited): alors pourquoi être sans merci pour le cerf de Virginie

why then having no mercy for the Virginia deer

In this text, I really can't see anything wrong with the most literal translation. Avoiding it looks to me like chercher midi à quatorze heures ...

Point of method: as far as I'm concerned "literal translation bad" is just the linguist's version of " ..., two legs bad".

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerf_de_Virginie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-tailed_deer



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2022-03-29 11:43:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

SANS MERCI POUR LE CERF DE VIRGINIE

Why no mercy for the Virginia deer
Peer comment(s):
disagree AllegroTrans : "Why then having..." is not grammatical English
4 mins
disagree philgoddard : This is not something a native speaker would say.
1 hr
Something went wrong...
8 hrs
French term (edited): SANS MERCI POUR LE CERF DE VIRGINIE

GUNNING FOR THE CERF DE VIRGINIE

vendetta / quarrel / hate campaign

There are two possible interpretations on "in our sights", and of course the one intended here is the negative one!
"Gunning for" has the advantage of delivering the meaning and hinting at the idea of culling.

What is our quarrel with these...?

why the vendetta against these creatures / what could anybody have against / why are we gunning for...

or something along these lines!
The writer is clearly indignant about the treatment/culling (?) of these much-loved / beautiful and probably gentle deer

I don't think it's essential to use the same translation both times, although of course that could make for a neater heading.

I guess it could be helpful to translate the type of deer, but that is not part of the question!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2022-03-29 11:21:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Following Cadastre's and Samuël's exceedingly helpful clarifications, I still think "Why are we gunning for..." could possibly work.

However, there are various other feasible possibilities that could also work in a heading, e.g.:

WHY THE PERSECUTION OF THE WHITE-TAILED DEER?

Our apparent heartlessness towards the ...

What is our problem with the white-tailed deer?

Dealing with the white-tailed deer

Our dilemma with the white-tailed deer

Solutions or the ...

etc, etc

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2022-03-29 11:47:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If appropriate, and if you wanted to make it a bit lighthearted/pithy, you could say

WHAT IS OUR BEEF WITH THE DEER?
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : i don't feel that 'quarrel' really works well, since there is really no sense of any kind of exchange between humans and deer. Likewise, I feel 'vendetta' is wholly unsuited here, as it suggests 'revenge' for something the deer have certainly not donel
56 mins
I agree re vendetta. However, having a quarrel against/with s.t./s.o. doesn't necessarily mean actually quarrelling with them, but simply not approving of some aspect of them... having something against them: "My quarrel with that is..."
neutral Barbara Cochran, MFA : "Gunning for" seems to be an idiom that actually often has a positive connotation: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/gunning for, so I don't think yours would be all that appropriate of a translation in this case./As a heading, could be misinterpreted.
1 hr
"Gunning for" means to be "after" someone, pursuing them relentlessly// NOT the heading (at the top), but ONLY the indicated text in the last line (and posted as the required term, above)
neutral AllegroTrans : Ginning for" sounds decidely odd and you don't need to leave the animal's name in French
2 hrs
Ginning for WOULD sound odd! However, it's GUNNING FOR - which is in common usage in EN, meaning to be constantly pursuing s/o in a mean or aggressive manner. We weren't asked to translate the animal, but I already did so later on anyway!
neutral ph-b (X) : Your suggestions don't reflect the contrast in the French text: "people like those deer, why then do we have to cull them?". See discussion. [Edit] And the writer is not "indignant". On the contrary./"The writer is clearly indignant about the treatment"
2 hrs
OK, I was transating: SANS MERCI POUR LE CERF DE VIRGINIE. You don't mention my other suggestions (Gunning for..., persecution..., some of which I think do allude - subtly - to the point I believe you are making./Sorry, where does INDIGNANT come from?
Something went wrong...
+4
10 hrs

why then are we so merciless to these animals?

The French repeats "cerf de Virginie", which is already in the heading. I see no need to do this.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2022-03-29 11:54:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Forgot to say, this is my translation for "alors pourquoi être sans merci pour le cerf de Virginie?"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2022-03-29 12:52:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And my suggestion for the heading SANS MERCI POUR LE CERF DE VIRGINIE would be NO MERCY FOR THE VIGINIA DEER (or the WHITE-TAILED DEER)
Peer comment(s):
agree Carol Gullidge : Can't disagree, as this is pretty much synonymous with several of my suggestions already posted!//Although I'd prefer "merciless towards" to "merciless to"//"alors pourquoi être" is NOT part of the question, so I'm quite dubious about your "Why then...?"
5 mins
Thanks // alors pourquoi? = why then? and as I said, this is my translation of the second ocurrence of the term, my suggestion for the first ocurrence has been added
agree ph-b (X) : with your note at 11 hrs. See my post in the discussion.
13 mins
Avec un merci!
agree Adrian MM. : https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/art-literary/63...
1 day 3 hrs
thanks Adrian
agree SafeTex
1 day 6 hrs
thanks ST
Something went wrong...
-1
12 hrs

Without being grateful for the cerf de Virginie

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerf_de_Virginie#cite_note-1
Cerf de Virginie ou biche des palétuviers
Suggestion issue, bien sûr, de toutes mes réfèrences ci-jointes plus bas.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 ώρες (2022-03-29 13:54:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

UPDATING ACCORDING TO THE MAIN QUESTION

Why then shouldn't we be grateful for the cerf de Virginie?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 ώρες (2022-03-29 14:02:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OR EVEN BETTER UPDATING ACCORDING TO THE MAIN QUESTION OF :

Alors pourquoi être sans merci pour le cerf de Virginie = Why then should we be ungrateful for the cerf de Virginie?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 ώρες (2022-03-29 14:42:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

*LAST UPDATING ACCORDING TO THE MAIN QUESTION OF: Alors pourquoi être sans merci pour le cerf de Virginie? =

= Why then should we be ungrateful for the whitetail deer?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 ώρες (2022-03-29 14:45:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

LE CERF DE VIRGINIE OR THE WHITETAIL / WHITE-TAILED DEER
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-tailed_deer
Peer comment(s):
disagree AllegroTrans : This doesn't pick up on the opposition in the text and doesn't really convey anything // but even using "ungrateful" doesn't clinch it imo and is just confusing // no it doesn't
14 mins
Haven't you noticed my two suggested updated translations downwards and especially the last one??/In this case ''without mercy'' surely means ''being ungrateful''!/It surely does.
Something went wrong...
-1
17 hrs

So why not give a break to the cert de Virginie?

Idiomatic translation.

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Note added at 17 hrs (2022-03-29 18:29:58 GMT)
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If you adopt a vegetarian – or, even better – a vegan diet, you give a break to wild animals.
https://studylib.net/doc/8749782/give-a-wolf-a-break-today…---atlantic-chapter


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2022-03-29 18:49:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

a page that discussed how to give a break to the orangutans.
https://www.bu.edu/goglobal/a/presentations/greenpeace_nestl...

ordinance changes that give a break to pit bulls and feral cats
https://www.southbendtribune.com/story/news/local/2015/06/02...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2022-03-29 23:13:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

‘cerf’ of course
Peer comment(s):
disagree AllegroTrans : Changes the stress completely and ignores the opposition in the source text // être sans merci has a MUCH stronger meaning that you are simply ignoring and of course I understand "give a break to"
21 hrs
Not if you understand the meaning of ‘to give a break to’.//Disagree that ‘give a break to’ indicates anything about the strength of the harm suffered.
Something went wrong...
1 day 1 hr

insensitive/callous

merciless connotes torture or discipline
I wish I could see the rest of the paragraph for context, but you could also substitute more suitable words like: ruthless, inhumane, unkind, pitiless, compassionless, harmful ...
Example sentence:

why then are we so insensitive to these animals

Something went wrong...
+2
1 day 6 hrs

merciless

The most correct translation is "merciless", the sense is right not to have pity of the deer.
Peer comment(s):
agree Adrian MM. : already in the ProZ Glossaries https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/art-literary/63...
8 hrs
neutral AllegroTrans : I already suggested this yesterday
8 hrs
neutral Michele Fauble : Already suggested.
9 hrs
agree Ben Gaia
9 days
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

10 hrs
Reference:

Parmi les grands mammifères du parc, le cerf de Virginie est sans aucun doute le plus facile à observer. Ces nombreuses rencontres font beaucoup d’heureux, alors pourquoi être sans merci pour le cerf de Virginie ?

https://www.facebook.com/ParcnationalduMontTremblant/photos/...
https://www.sepaq.com/pq/mot/?fbclid=IwAR0vW2dNAbYaw9-vJNTu7...
https://www.sepaq.com/resources/docs/pq/mot/mot_decouverte_2...
https://www.agrireseau.net/documents/Document_104013.pdf
LE CERF DE VIRGINIE
Dans plusieurs secteurs du sud du Québec, la surabondance du cerf de Virginie nuit à la régénération de plusieurs
espèces d’arbres, d’arbustes et de plantes de sous-bois, ce qui entraînera d’importantes conséquences sur la composition et la dynamique des forêts. Toutefois, on connaît peu les effets du cerf sur les systèmes agroforestiers de
peupliers hybrides, des systèmes que l’on implante pour augmenter la production de services écosystémiques sur les
fermes (séquestration du carbone, captage des nutriments, production de biomasse et de bois, stabilisation du sol,
amélioration du microclimat, corridors et refuges pour la faune et la flore).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 ώρες (2022-03-29 13:38:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Mammifères du Québec et de l'est du Canada — Édition revue et augmentée

Something went wrong...
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